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#425647 - 03/03/10 08:56 PM Traditional Taekwondo same as karate
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I am just making a sweeping statement just for the sake of discussion.

What is known as Traditional TKD or Original TK-D is basically karate with an emphasis on kicks. This is me making a general statement looking at my own Moo Duk Kwan TKD, and Chun hon TKD at face validity.

Changing the name of an art, patterns, and minor movements does not create a unique art.

What I would say separates the Korean version or style/kwan/schools from their Japanese counterparts would be the emphasis put on kicks by the Koreans.

For the sake of argument I ask that we only discuss the physical aspects and not cultural philosophy. However, if you can bring up a point on just how the philosophy directly relates to combat strategy such as Aikido's yielding and redirecting energy. Which is a major influence on their physical techniques and their entire approach to combat. Please do so. But this is not a discussion on morals and cultural beliefs.
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#425655 - 03/04/10 08:10 AM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
First of all the term "Traditional TKD" as universaly accepted Definition. Before 1955 there was no TKD. The name did not exist.
Secondly, the term "Karate" has no universaly accepted definition. There are many systems that may use that name.

So, it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion if the people involved don't first agree on how terms are defined.

Now, if wee address 2 systems that may fall within the terms used, Shotokan for karate, and the first uniques system Chang Hon, to use the term TKD then noted fundamental differences are the Shotokan Level headed motion when steppining versus TKD knee flex to gnerate power resulting in a noticeable up and down movement of the head which is not unique to TKD but ues a metaphor of "Sine Wave' to describe it. Second large difference is the deeply rooted theory of Shotokan (with the story of funakoshi standing on the roof in a typhoon) versus the generating power even while jumping techniques of TKD.

There is no dispute that TKD shares it;'s roots - Shorin and Shorei with many Karate Systems. However, to say they are the same is to Say Judo is the Same As Ju Jitsu, or that many karate systems are the same as Shorin or Shorei.

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#425656 - 03/04/10 08:54 AM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I agree with Master Weiss & will go further. All MAs are the same, in the sense that they teach one to defend themselves. In the end a punch is a punch & a front snap kick is a front snap kick. So to the complete novice, the totally uniformed, put martial artists in a training room from all styles with the same generic gi, dobok, uniform, practice suit or blue jeans & a white T shirt, let them punch & kick the air & there would be little difference to the uneducated or unexperienced.

Now let them drift off to their own methods of training & emphasis & I think even the uniformed will start to notice some variance & variety. Through in rules of engagement & it widens. Then do the opposite, take out all rules & say anything goes & it goes back to a mish-mosh or a blur for the uneducated or novice.

That being said, in Korea prior to the end of the occupation brought upon by Japan losing WWII, there was only Korean archery, Japanese Judo and Kendo in Korea. When the original 5 Kwans opened (44/5-47) & Gen Choi Hong Hi started to teach in the military, along with Col Nam tae Hi (46-47), they all did some form of the karate brought to Korea by Koreans living overseas, namely in Japan. There was some minor Chinese influence, but it was basically karate, which Master Weiss points out has it differences & different veins as well. I believe this continued till well into the 50s. By the late 50s & early 60s changes were coming in order to make what they were doing more Korean. It started 1st with the name TKD in 1955, put forth by Gen Choi. The changes continued with the new Korean patterns he designed with the help of his soldiers under his command. These soldiers have variuos levels of experience & talent in the fighting systems employed in Korea at that time. So they started to develop a SD system for the military, which they called TKD as a mix of these styles of MAs at the time. So original TKD started as a MMA.

In the 60s new sports rules were developed by both the Jidokwan, which would become Olympic TKD & in the OhDokwan by Gen Woo Jong Lim, which would become the ITF rules. These 2 main types of TKD with their seperate emphasis & focus continue to evolve & develop today. Likewise there are far too many independents that have taken their own roads of development.
So in the end, it really is in the eye of the beholder. We also must take into account the level of knowledge & experience that is behind the sets of eyes that is viewing these martial artists. To me & only for me, all MAs share much in common. But then again, a deep, careful analysis comparing MAs will always help show the numerous differences & emphasis or focus that they insist on. Only you, the viewer can ever determine for yourself, if it is all that different or just the same thing, more or less, with a different wrapper.
For me, ITF or original TKD as left to us in 2002, is so much different from it roots which go back to the 1930s-50s. JMHO
When I look at Olympic TKD today, I also see a unique Korean martial sport, that can not be confused with the same karate roots, but again, these are my eyes & MNSHO

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#425675 - 03/04/10 10:33 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: EarlWeiss]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:
the first uniques system Chang Hon, to use the term TKD then noted fundamental differences are the Shotokan Level headed motion when steppining versus TKD knee flex to gnerate power resulting in a noticeable up and down movement of the head which is not unique to TKD but ues a metaphor of "Sine Wave' to describe it.


Ah the arguable sign wave. I do not consider the up and down bouncing motion performed during patterns a real fundamental difference. Further more although it may cause some increase in power to step forward or even to bounce up and down (sign wave) while punching. I do not think it actually makes a significant improvement. Meaning it would make no real difference in combat. So whether the student does it or does not do it it really makes no difference. Especially when performed in such a formal manner such as patterns when no actual TKDist performs that way during combat.

And I do not mean to knit pick but the name Judo replaced the name Ju-jitsu/Ju-jutsu in Japan. Judo became the accepted term. The two are actually the same art. However, judo emphasizes throwing and sweeping techniques over bone breaking and ground fighting. At least this is what I have found in my studies.
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#425676 - 03/04/10 10:57 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
By the late 50s & early 60s changes were coming in order to make what they were doing more Korean. It started 1st with the name TKD in 1955, put forth by Gen Choi. The changes continued with the new Korean patterns he designed

Once again as my original post stated. I do not consider that changing the name and the patterns creates a new unique art. Rearranging the same techniques found in the Shotokan forms (Pinans) and calling them something else is not unique. Particularly when they are the same exact techniques. Only performed in a different order.

Quote:
It started 1st with the name TKD in 1955, put forth by Gen Choi.


There is much debate whether Gen. Hong Hi Choi, actually came up with the name. Personally I don't mind giving him credit for it as it is so widely accepted. And he did promote his style of TKD endlessly.

Quote:
In the 60s new sports rules were developed by both the Jidokwan, which would become Olympic TKD & in the OhDokwan by Gen Woo Jong Lim, which would become the ITF rules. These 2 main types of TKD with their separate emphasis & focus continue to evolve & develop today.


With the emphasis on sparring, it is very obvious how TKD evolved. The old methods of training which were Japanese became obsolete and new scientific methods were employed in order to hone in on a more athletic aspect of sparring. Old philosophies such as one hit kill dropped, the kicking techniques evolved into a more dynamic arsenal allowing for more agility and versatility. This in my opinion is a truly a unique Korean style.
_________________________
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master" - Leonardo Da
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#425689 - 03/05/10 12:15 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
There is much debate whether Gen. Hong Hi Choi, actually came up with the name. Personally I don't mind giving him credit for it as it is so widely accepted. And he did promote his style of TKD endlessly.

Please define "much debate", as there is really very little credible debate about who came up with the name TKD. Years after GM Son Duk Sung left Korea he wrote a book in 1968 in which he called Korean Karate. It is funny that 3 years after the Korean Tae Su Do Association changed its name to TKD (1965) that GM Son never mentioned once in his own book that he came up with the name TKD that by now had become very popular & spread around the world by Gen Choi's team & followers.
It is well documented that GM Son in 1959 fought openly with Gen Choi, refusing to give him a 6th dan & cancelling his 4th dan honorary cert. He also expelled 3 members of the CDK held in very high esteem. Afer GM Son left, these 3 were reinstated & played major roles in the devlopment of TKD & the CDK. Some say the source of his trouble with Gen Choi was that gen Choi did not select or allow him to come on the 1st TKD demo team abroad in 1959. GM Son also allied himself with different politicans thatn Gen Choi did. Additionally the word Tae was found from the Chinese characters which Gen choi as a noted caligraphist would have had knowledge of. No such claims have been made about GM Son's education background that would afford him the same access to the term.

So I would be very interested in hearing what you have found about the debate over who came up with the name.

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#425691 - 03/05/10 01:11 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Nice post TeK9.

Quote:
So original TKD started as a MMA.


A few martial arts schools in the area claim the same including ones like Fred Villari's M.A. ! If one is saying this to align itself with the term "MMA" and/or it's movement, then it's marketing! Ultimately most every martial art is a combination or mix of a few to a number of arts! In the end training martial arts is where: One trains, learns, compares, combines, adds, takes away from and forms their own martial art to suit their personal needs.


Edited by Fruitloopy (03/05/10 01:12 PM)
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#425698 - 03/05/10 05:29 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Fruitloopy]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
"Many Taekwondo pioneers have claimed credit for its formation, and several claim the title of "founder" or "father" of Taekwondo. These claims are often repeated by loyal followers of each of these pioneers, and their respective organizations, but there is too much controversy and opinion over the exact contributions, and significance of each person's role in order to state, unequivocally, that one is more important than any others. Rather than presenting a biased slant, it is best to state the facts, and let the reader decide for themselves."

Took this excerpt from a random site, it stated what I wanted to say. But I'd also like to add that in many books credit is often given to all the kwans and no one specific GM is ever credited.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425702 - 03/05/10 07:51 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
Quote:
So original TKD started as a MMA.
A few martial arts schools in the area claim the same including ones like Fred Villari's M.A. ! If one is saying this to align itself with the term "MMA" and/or it's movement, then it's marketing! Ultimately most every martial art is a combination or mix of a few to a number of arts! In the end training martial arts is where: One trains, learns, compares, combines, adds, takes away from and forms their own martial art to suit their personal needs.
Yes it is pretty clear that original TKD started in the military under a general & his soldiers that had various levels of experience & talent in different fighting systems around in Korea at that time.
There were of course other veins where other forms, system of styles of KMAs developed along, eventually many if not most of them using the name TKD. How those veins developed or progressed will vary. However it is also clear that the biggest & most influential vein, the WTF/KKW developed as a sport around new unique sports rules. What was done in the indivdual gyms varies & still does. However the KKW & SK universities have been teaching & graduating TKD younger generation masters who do have a somewhat standard syllabus, which does follow sports development of Olympic TKD

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#425703 - 03/05/10 08:23 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
"Many Taekwondo pioneers have claimed credit for its formation, and several claim the title of "founder" or "father" of Taekwondo. These claims are often repeated by loyal followers of each of these pioneers, and their respective organizations, but there is too much controversy and opinion over the exact contributions, and significance of each person's role in order to state, unequivocally, that one is more important than any others. Rather than presenting a biased slant, it is best to state the facts, and let the reader decide for themselves."
Took this excerpt from a random site, it stated what I wanted to say. But I'd also like to add that in many books credit is often given to all the kwans and no one specific GM is ever credited.

The quote above makes a lot of sense. However to come to this conclusion I realize that there are many forms or styles of TKD. The problem simply is that many do whatever they do, but have at some point along the way, simply applied the name TKD to their system.
So 1st we must define TKD, then we can very easily see who is the founder, or principle founder for each form, style or system on TKD. It gets complicated when the other forms do not acknowledge the contributions of founders of another vein.

As to your point, many books take that approach as they do not want to highlight the connection to the original or ealry kwan founders, as that makes the link to karate, which the Koreans hate because of the suffering under Japanese rules for a half a century. So in effect they throw these founders under the bus for nationalist interests.
The books that mention them, imo could do a better job of showing what kwan founder did & then what he can be credited with.
Truth be told, it appears from looking at history, only 2 kwan founders played a role in TKD's development, Gen Choi Hong Hi (ODK) & GM Ro Byung Jik (SMK).

So while going a bit off topic, I'll state some facts, hoping that readers will feel that I have been balanced, despite my screen name, I look for facts, the truth of what happened & feel there is a lot of credit to go around. Hopefully readers will agree, if not, please call me on it.

1- there was no TKD before WWII ended
2- in fact there was no traceable, verifiable serious link to any KMA of the past to the kwans that opened after WWII
3- these kwans basically taught karate, with some minor Chinese influence by 7 men who studies abroad, mostly in Japan
4- early attempts to unify were not successful
5- 2 of the original kwan founders either were killed, went to the north or were kidnapped to the north during the Korean War, as such, they had little to do with TKD's development as the kwasn opened 1944-47, with the War taking place 1950-53
6- additionally Lee Won Kuk founder of the CDK fled to Japan to escape govt persecution as an alleged Japanese sympthazier by 1950
7- the name TKD came about by April 11, 1955, however it appears that only Gen Choi & those that followed him used the name, applying it to the system that they were developing in the Korean military as a mix of the fighting arts available to them at the time
8- in 1957 Gen Choi, GM Son Duk Sung & I think GM Ro Byung Jik were involved in the formation of the TKD Association of Korea, with Gen Choi being VP, GM Son Secty Gen & GM Ro a top position as well, the president was a non-TKD man who was a politican
9- this group collasped & Gen Choi then formed the KTA in 1959, with him as 1st president
10- May 16, 1961 a military coup changed the SK govt to a brutal military dictatorship, later that year the Korean Tae Su Do Assoc was formed as they rejected the name TKD, Gen Choi losing politcal power as a result of the military coup eventually gets sent to Malaysia as an Ambassador
11- Gen Choi returns to SK & in 1965 gets elected as 3rd president of this KTA & changes the name to TKD by 1 vote, the previous 2 presidents were another General & a politican, they refuse to accept his system & push him out & to the ITF he set up in 1966
12- GM Ro Byung Jik succeeds him as the 4th president of the KTA, followed by another politican & then KCIA operative & gifted politcal leader Dr. Kim Un Yong
13- at this time the development of TKD takes 2 main roads, ITF & WTF
14- Gen Choi, Col Nam Tae Hi, Gen Woo Jong Lim, Sgt Han Cha Kyo, Sgt-Major Kim Bok Man & many others help Gen Choi develop original TKD, original used as they were the 1st to use the name & apply it to their system
15- Tae Su Do, a compromise name, as the non military TKD men, did not want to use TKD, however in 1965 they lost the vote by I think a 1 vote margin, so they used the name TKD starting in 1965, 10 years after the ODK did
16- the Tae Su Do leaders were the 2nd generation Korean martial artists led by GMs Lee Chong Woo, Uhm Un Gyu & Lee Nam Suk, among others, their leader was the govt man Dr. Kim, who spoke 5-6 languages & eventually made TKD an Olympic sport
17- in August of 1978 the kwans were numbered & retired, all roled into the KKW, the mecca of TKD, so for some, it is clear to see that they did not use the TKD name for some 23 years

See a lot of credit to go around.
I am missing 1 kwan founder, but do you know why I didn't include him? or why I didn't include the 7th person who studied abroad?

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