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#425809 - 03/12/10 11:59 AM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
[quote]But by that logic, The Magnificent Seven should be called The Seven Samurai. That wouldnt have made any more sense than this./quote]

The logic doesn't hold because you are introducing a foreign culture into the American Market. Neither of those movies have the cross culture aspect, it's simply and American Adaptation.

Swing and miss....strike one.
[quote]Will Smith's son is not going to chllenge early Jet Li or Donnie Yen as an exemplar of the grace of wu shu./quote]

Nor was I expecting him too. Even in the Karate Kid the beauty of the Art was not seen in Ralph Machio's character. Probably the best was the Asian Kid who lost in the Semi's.

The beauty of the Art is seen all over the trailer done by the Monks and other Chinese MA's. Add to that Hollywood quality Cinematography, There is a real beautiful portrayal of the Art.

Inside Corner...called Strike Two!

[quote]If its not karate, then its not about a karate kid. Be like going to see Iron Man 2 and it starring spiderman instead. Sure, he's a superhero, but not the one the title suggested would be appearing./quote]

Can't say I disagree, seems like they could have found a way to tie in Kung Fu, since the title is wrong. But to the rest of the world, it's more like the difference between a donkey and a mule. I am sure the producers didn't want to budge on the Marketing Appeal of the name, at the same time the Kung Fu angle changed the game just enough to stir interest. If this had been about a Kid going to Japan and meeting Karate teacher , we would all be saying WHY did the remake thic Classic.

He lay's off the curve ball in the dirt...1-2!
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#425810 - 03/12/10 12:07 PM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
[quote]What the hell is going to happen if this film takes off!!??

Just another nail of misinformation and misrepresentation in the coffin of martial arts/quote]

I would hope today, people will be more informed and make better choices. But probably a bunch of fake CMA schools will pop up, sell a bunch of crap. XMA schools will alter the uniforms to mimic the movies and teach a bunch of acrobatic Martial Arts. The the MMA kids will beat them all up and we start over.

That said, it's up the to real CMA's out there to capture some market. Attendance is way down between the strip mall Karate Kids and the MMA schools. Finally something might tip the balance back the other way.

I'd say that even's up the count....2-2.
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#425813 - 03/12/10 12:38 PM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
But by that logic, The Magnificent Seven should be called The Seven Samurai. That wouldnt have made any more sense than this.


The logic doesn't hold because you are introducing a foreign culture into the American Market. Neither of those movies have the cross culture aspect, it's simply and American Adaptation.

Swing and miss....strike one.


So, telling the same story but one using swords, and the other using guns, is sufficient to warrant a name change, but tell the same story, with one using Japanese MA and the other using Chinese MA, and the title doesnt matter. Pretty sure that Japan and China are quite particular about their cultural identity, but feel free to class it all as karate next time you attend a san shou session
wink
Quote:
Quote:
Will Smith's son is not going to chllenge early Jet Li or Donnie Yen as an exemplar of the grace of wu shu.


Nor was I expecting him too. Even in the Karate Kid the beauty of the Art was not seen in Ralph Machio's character. Probably the best was the Asian Kid who lost in the Semi's.

The beauty of the Art is seen all over the trailer done by the Monks and other Chinese MA's. Add to that Hollywood quality Cinematography, There is a real beautiful portrayal of the Art.

Inside Corner...called Strike Two!


You think hollywood cinematography is superior in portraying CMA!!?? Once Upon a Time in China, Hero, Crouching Tiger, Iron Monkey and many more prove you wrong.

Quote:
If this had been about a Kid going to Japan and meeting Karate teacher , we would all be saying WHY did the remake thic Classic.


So Karate Kid 2 is a classic!?

How's my batting average looking now? grin


Edited by Cord (03/12/10 12:40 PM)
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#425825 - 03/13/10 11:50 AM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
[quote] Pretty sure that Japan and China are quite particular about their cultural identity,/quote]

True, but we are selling it too Americans, have you met many Americans? As a people, not very particular when it comes to other cultural identities.

[quote]ou think hollywood cinematography is superior in portraying CMA!!?? Once Upon a Time in China, Hero, Crouching Tiger, Iron Monkey and many more prove you wrong./quote]

I think I said "Hollywood Quality" both of those films would match the quality, but they are chop sake flicks, this film seems to be about the spirit of CMA...thats the big seller. The camera shots where they showcase China and it's traditions are the eye grabbing parts I think will hit home.

[quote]So Karate Kid 2 is a classic!?

How's my batting average looking now? /quote]

How did we get to the Karate Kid 2?

You went down looking because you couldn't the bat off your shoulder when I brought the heat....hopefully your good at Chutes and Ladders smile
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#425827 - 03/13/10 02:07 PM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
Pretty sure that Japan and China are quite particular about their cultural identity,/quote]

True, but we are selling it too Americans, have you met many Americans? As a people, not very particular when it comes to other cultural identities.


No, its a film made in hollywood, for a global market.

[quote]I think I said "Hollywood Quality" both of those films would match the quality, but they are chop sake flicks, this film seems to be about the spirit of CMA...thats the big seller. The camera shots where they showcase China and it's traditions are the eye grabbing parts I think will hit home.


Seriously, I really dont think you have seen Hero or Crouching Tiger if you can say this with a straight face.

Quote:
How did we get to the Karate Kid 2?

Because you said:
Quote:
If this had been about a Kid going to Japan and meeting Karate teacher , we would all be saying WHY did the remake thic Classic.


That happened in Karate Kid II, Miyagi takes Daniel san to Okinawa, remember? Whilst I preferred it to the original, it did not make it a classic.

You make a kung fu movie, then dont put 'Karate' in the title. Its insulting to the cultural and physical differences between the arts, and its presuming level of ignorance in the audience.

After things like the Matrix, Kill Bill, Last Samurai, Hero, etc, mainstream movie goers are a lot more familiar with the differences between martial arts than you may believe.

Dont damn everyone with your own lack of discernment wink


Edited by Cord (03/13/10 02:09 PM)
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#425828 - 03/13/10 02:26 PM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:


Seriously, I really dont think you have seen Hero or Crouching Tiger if you can say this with a straight face.


Crouching Tiger, is clearly based on 70's Kung Fu theatre, the definition of Chop Sake. This is not a put down of the movie. I love love love the movie especially with sub titles. They took a standard Kung Fu theatre movie and produced it with Hollywood level quality.

The Karate Kid is a story/character driven story with the MA being a vehicle more then the star, unlike Crouching Tiger.

Crouching Tiger is also fantasy based where Karate Kid is realistic (at least that is the intention) the feats of MA skill will be considered actually attainable. These are very important differences. Doesn't make one or the other better, but different.

My point is they will be showcasing Chinese Culture in a realistic way that will make kids think, I want to learn that. (realistic is used loosely) Croughing Tiger does not do that.

Quote:
That happened in Karate Kid II, Miyagi takes Daniel san to Okinawa, remember? Whilst I preferred it to the original, it did not make it a classic.


That was a continuation of the first Movie, pretty different circumstances. Even if you prefer the second movie, the Classic is Karate Kid 1. And I'd have to disagree with you, the development of the relationship between Miyagi and Danielson, is the core of the franchise.

Quote:
Dont damn everyone with your own lack of discernment wink


Well, I think that the reference to the original movie will be enough for most people, though I do agree it's a bit annoying they couldn't figure out a way to get Kung fu in the title.
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#425830 - 03/13/10 05:32 PM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007

Crouching Tiger, is clearly based on 70's Kung Fu theatre, the definition of Chop Sake.


It is actually a story in the wuxia tradition, which is a school of fiction that goes back hundreds of years.

In modern cinematic terms, the style can be compared to the chambara films of Japan. Both styles involve Martial artists capable of supernatural physical feats, and possessed of strong 'heroic' moral codes. They are the 'superhero' stories of their respective cultures.

Quote:
The Karate Kid is a story/character driven story with the MA being a vehicle more then the star, unlike Crouching Tiger.


Seriously!!?? Crouching Tiger is more emotionaly complex than Karate Kid. The interplay between Yun Fat and Yeoh, the supression of love in favour of duty, juxtaposed with Zhang Ziyi's reckless abandonment of duty in favour of following her heart. These are the beating heart of that film. The MA scenes are the icing on the cake, they are not the main ingredient.

Quote:
My point is they will be showcasing Chinese Culture in a realistic way that will make kids think, I want to learn that. (realistic is used loosely) Croughing Tiger does not do that.


You are talking about a country that celebrates the story of the Monkey King in national holidays. The fantastical is integral to the Chinese culture.
Besides that, kids will come out of The Karate Kid, and what do you think their parents will enrole them if they choose to entertain their whim? Not kung Fu, why would they?

Quote:
That was a continuation of the first Movie, pretty different circumstances. Even if you prefer the second movie, the Classic is Karate Kid 1


Its not a classic. My Myagi was a great character, but its not a classic movie. Fondly remembered? Yep, 80's retro kitsch? sure. Classic to be mentioned in the same breath as Psycho, Goodfella's, Platoon, Star Wars or The Godfather? Not even close.

Quote:
Well, I think that the reference to the original movie will be enough for most people, though I do agree it's a bit annoying they couldn't figure out a way to get Kung fu in the title.


Its just horrible. If it hasnt got any karate in it, its not the Karate Kid. How can it be?

'The Kung Fu Kid' why does that sound any more cheesy than 'the karate kid'?

Even better, why not be brave and re-tel the story with an intelligent title, and let people draw the comparisons themselves.

I just think its lazy film making, with an equally lazy title.
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#425832 - 03/14/10 01:31 PM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
[quote]They are the 'superhero' stories of their respective cultures./quote]

OK sure, but I am looking at the movie through my glasses and I see Kung Fu Theatre...period. I am sure the makers of all those movies didn't think "Hey lets make a movie they will show on Sunday Afternoons on channel 32 WFLD!" But that is how most of us (in the states) saw them and enjoyed them, so in our world thats what they are.

[quote]Seriously!!?? Crouching Tiger is more emotionaly complex than Karate Kid./quote]

Hardly, the movie had the plot lines you mention but it was about amazing fight scenes and beautiful cinema.

[quote]You are talking about a country that celebrates the story of the Monkey King in national holidays./quote]

No I am talking about the US, this whole discussion is about an American Movie made for Americans.


[quote]Its not a classic./quote]

Wax on Wax off...it's a classic my brother, ain't no denying it.

[quote]Its just horrible. If it hasnt got any karate in it, its not the Karate Kid. How can it be?/quote]

You are correct...but as I explained it's not about being correct. The Kung Fu Kid doesn't sound right, can't explain why but even though it's a more accurate title, it's cheesy. The Karate Kid is part of the culture, recognized and marketable. It would be like calling Superman, Superperson...you can't change it.

I agree it's lazy, they should have come up with another name that was not so incorrect, but most of the world will not be bothered by it, and the upside for the marketing is just too huge to ignore.
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#425835 - 03/15/10 05:51 AM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007

OK sure, but I am looking at the movie through my glasses and I see Kung Fu Theatre...period. I am sure the makers of all those movies didn't think "Hey lets make a movie they will show on Sunday Afternoons on channel 32 WFLD!" But that is how most of us (in the states) saw them and enjoyed them, so in our world thats what they are.


I am not American. There are 6.5 BILLION non US citizens on earth.

Quote:

Hardly, the movie had the plot lines you mention but it was about amazing fight scenes and beautiful cinema.


But you just said it did not exemplify the beauty of Chinese culture, now you say tht is one of its defining aspects!?

Quote:

No I am talking about the US, this whole discussion is about an American Movie made for Americans.


I refer you again to the 6.5 BILLION non US citizens that Hollywood rely on for the majority of their revenue.


Quote:
Wax on Wax off...it's a classic my brother, ain't no denying it.


Taking a plce in popular culture does not define a classic piece of cinema. Example in a comparible genre would be 'Rocky'. The first movie is a powerful piece of film making, and cn rightfully claim to be a 'classic' defining movie in cinematic history. The sequels were even more popular in box office terms, and introduced an entire lexicon of quotes into popular language, but were by no means of comparible quality to the original in the quality of film making, or depth of performance.

Quote:
You are correct...but as I explained it's not about being correct.


What point in playing a game when the oponent won't acknowledge a home run? wink


Quote:
The Kung Fu Kid doesn't sound right, can't explain why but even though it's a more accurate title, it's cheesy. The Karate Kid is part of the culture, recognized and marketable. It would be like calling Superman, Superperson...you can't change it.


That's a bad analogy. This is like calling a film Superman, and then having him have no powers, but driving around gunning down drug dealers in a gritty urban drama, thus making the title misleading and inaccurate.

Quote:
I agree it's lazy, they should have come up with another name that was not so incorrect, but most of the world will not be bothered by it, and the upside for the marketing is just too huge to ignore.


They did already do this. They remade the Karate Kid as 'Never Back Down'. It was awful. Possibly the worst film I have ever seen (and I have sat through all of Troll 2), but at least it had the bollox to let go of its inspiration's shirt-tails and try to make it on its own merits.

You are not bothered, and that's cool.

I am - because I think this could well be a better movie than Karate Kid ever was, and I think they should have been braver, and had more confidence in it.
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#425836 - 03/15/10 08:15 AM Re: Why are they calling it "The Karate Kid"... [Re: Cord]
Kathryn Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Washington, DC
Not sure how "Crouching Tiger" got dragged into this, but a side note -- that movie has even more depth because it is based on a Chinese novel that explores the interplay between the three major religions of China -- Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism.

The title is a reference to the Taoist elixer of immortality, the male character is also Taoist. If I remember correctly, the lady who runs the security company is Confucian, and the other lady is buddhist. The love story, the use of the sword, the pursuit of martial arts are all used to illustrate the path to spiritual transcendence.


Edited by Kathryn (03/15/10 08:18 AM)
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