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#425335 - 02/21/10 06:27 AM O motto tenno
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Firstly, thank you to the folks who contributed to the list of links in the karate section. I was looking there for my answer and got sidetracked with some really good reading. Didn't find my answer though, probably because of the tangents I pursued. Hence my question.

The strangest kata I have ever learned is called O motto tenno. I suspect it is a very new kata and related to the Shotokan kata but not itself, Shotokan. One of the convenient strengths of the collective membership on this forum is the history knowledge and since I personally am history impaired, I'd like to ask if anyone is familiar with the kata and what is its history?
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#425547 - 02/26/10 08:45 AM Re: O motto tenno [Re: underdog]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Hello Rosanne,

Please elaborate more on that kata. Who created it? What style(s) is it trained in? Some characteristics?

I personally never heard of this kata.
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#425633 - 03/03/10 12:16 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: underdog]
William_Bent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 18
Omotto (omote)Tenno kata is a creation of Funakoshi Gichen, however he may have learned something similar in his training. "Omote" is the "outward" aspect of the kata. There is also the "Ura" part of the kata which is the other side of the technique when this kata is performed as a two man set.
The JKA dropped this but I think the Shotokai might have kept it. If you look at the IsshinRyu "sets" you can see that Shimabukuru took the techniques from Omote tenno kata or a similar source.

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#425654 - 03/04/10 08:10 AM Re: O motto tenno [Re: William_Bent]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
That omote is should have figured. I've seen some YouTube video's of Ten-no-kata (omote not the ura version). Seem like some basic Kihon Zuki+stepping excercise.

What is this form used for?
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#425662 - 03/04/10 11:37 AM Re: O motto tenno [Re: Ives]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Oh these links were great. I'll spend more time with them. When I went on you-tube before posting here, I was looking for "omoto tenno" and finding nothing. Now I see I would have hit a gold mine had I looked for "ten no kata" or "Kata of the Universe" which is the English name for the kata. That is my kata. I thought it wasn't Shotokan because I didn't see it listed as Shotokan in any Shotokan site like 24 Fighting Chickens. My school's history started with Shotokan but it has so many influences since, that now it really resembles more of a Kenpo derivative. We have lots of Shotokan kata but I wasn't sure of the history of this one. Thanks a lot. I'm checking too the different versions mentioned to see how close I can find to what we do exactly.
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#425688 - 03/05/10 12:02 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: underdog]
William_Bent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 18
I believe, based on your web page, that the version of Ommote Ten No kata that you practice came down to you through Don Murnane. (I studied with Don for 25+ yrs). I think you will find that most of the Shotokan kata you practice came down through Don from Peter Ventreska, who taught in Boston in the mid 60's. I studied with Peter for two summers while in college and never saw Ommote Ten No, but that doesn't mean he didn't teach it. Don had a lot of influences after he left Ventreska. Hope this helps

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#425705 - 03/05/10 09:40 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: William_Bent]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Yes it does. Would I know you? Do my teachers know you?
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#425726 - 03/06/10 11:16 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: underdog]
William_Bent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 18
Steve Schatvet should remember me from the Sharon Recreational Center when he studied with Don's son Brian.

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#425730 - 03/07/10 06:27 AM Re: O motto tenno [Re: William_Bent]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
What a small world it is. Well, it is nice to meet you and thanks for the help. I'll ask Vinnie G Mike H and Marshall W if they know you.
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#425764 - 03/09/10 08:47 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: underdog]
LCMA Cody Robyn Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1
William,

I am underdog's proud teacher. I was sent this link and wanted to add what I could. I am the co-owner of the Learning Center for Martial Arts in Mansfield and Norwood with John Hagman. Our school was founded by Steve Schatvet, but has changed in many ways since the Massapoag days.

Vinny Guerrini, John Hagman, and Marshall Wolff were around through the 70's with Brian Murnane and occasionally Don Murnane. Although we occasionally run into Dennis Mann, we have no connection with Massapoag at this point.

This kata was removed from our curriculum due the fact that students did not spent the time learning from it, but all too much time trying to remember it. It is fairly boring and, in my opinion is a great drill, but no kata.

If you are able to direct me to some links about Peter Ventreska, I would love to read more. Thanks so much. I have never been totally comfortable calling our Japanese Karate, "Shotokan" There are so many elements that are variation.

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#425837 - 03/15/10 12:37 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: LCMA Cody Robyn]
William_Bent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 18
Peter Ventreska had a dojo on Pearl St in Boston in the late 1960's. I studied with Peter for two summers: 1966 and 1967 while I was in College.

While I was there, Peter wrote a book “Shotokan, the Ultimate in Self Defense”. It is still available on Amazon. The book covers basics, Tekki Shodan, and Bassai Dai. ( I don’t believe he taught the opening of Bassai the way it is shown).

There are no links about him that I could find. Maybe I’ll stop by your dojo sometime, I have some interesting stories.

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#425878 - 03/17/10 12:09 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: William_Bent]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I found a link about him. http://budget.net/~dnolan/p4.html I also found his book on Amazon. Thank you for giving me this piece of history for my school. I was trying to find who Peter Ventresca studied with but I couldn't get it any further back than that. I was wondering how many teachers there were between him and Funikoshi. All of a sudden, history became exciting. I found the original American Shotokan teachers from a Shotokan site. It would be nice if I could connect the two. I can't believe how much information I have received and all from asking a question about this really weird kata.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#425879 - 03/17/10 12:33 PM Re: O motto tenno [Re: LCMA Cody Robyn]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
http://www.nortonkenshoryu.com/History_Shotokan.htm

This is very close to the missing link.
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