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#425130 - 02/17/10 09:23 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Originally Posted By: matxtx
Originally Posted By: XxTaexKidxX
Why is it in the UFC or any other major fighting sport, Tae-Kwon-Do fighters are lacking in the roster. Makes me wonder if Tae-Kwon-Do would help me in my MMA journey or if it would help me in self-defense.


I will give my view as someone who trains in Taekwondo, Muay Thai and MMA.
I do not believe Taekwondo will help you as much for MMA as doing ,Muay Thai or even Boxing. Thats not because Taekwondo is bad or anything it is just harder to adapt technicaly into MMA in regards to matching it up with grappling on the ground and standing both defensivly and attacking. The way kicking is done,the stances taken and the tactics used when learning to fight for Taekwondo puts it further away from the stances ,tactics and type of kicking that is needed For MMA. The better at MMA you want to be the further from TKD you will have to go get. None of the top ranking fighters, who its best to look at to see whats working, use TKD or use it alot. Anderson Silva trained in it ages ago though now he uses or adapts MT for his stand up.
Its not just the actual styles its the training methods that are borrowed too. Taewkondo training methods dont involve all thats needed for a full stand up. Elbows and knees are not trained in the c urriculum to the level of Muay Thai in relation to kicking and for fighting full contact. Elbows and knees in TKD are are trained just not to a high or intense enough level to use in a ring fight against another skilled person.

Adapting TKD could be done its just no ones done it yet to a high level and there's no need to as Muay Thai is easier to adapt. Also it would end up looking or being so similar that people would then argue its not TKD anymore.

Thats my honest view.
I know to get better I will have to stop doing TKD yet I dont think its useless and I enjoy it. It just doesnt fit into MMA easily.
----
My view on SD is that its still a fight of some kind.. a fight to get away or to just survive or whatever. So elements of fighting help and come into play. Being able to fight and useing some of the dirtier stuff from TKD can be of use.
A good ring or cage fighter useing the apparently 'deadly' stuff from TKD in SD will fair better that a non fighter trying to use the 'deadly' stuff from TKD in SD.
Just my personal view.


Matxtx my man you are almost there. Thats what I've been trying to say all along. You are right it's not about the style but more about the training methods.

And for this very reason is why you need to stop focusing on TKD as a style. But instead see it as a range of fighting from which it's techniques can be applied. Olympic style TKD has revolutionized the way kicks are done. While true that many styles still kick without chambers, many more styles have integrated Olympic style kicking into their curriculum. Just like back in the days when kick boxing was popular. Kickboxers would study TKD not for the entire art or stylistic differences but for the application of its kicks in conjunction with their hands, which was basically boxing under the guise of "traditional" karate.

Anderson Silva is a perfect example. When he was a guess coach on the UFC coach for Antonio Rodrigo Nogueria he trained his team using the very same kicking methods found in Olympic TKD. Remember Olympic TKD changed it's teaching methods because they're focus became sparring and competition. Without that goal in mind the evolution of traditional kicks would have never took place within TKD.

While true Anderson Silva uses MT to supplement his stand up, you have to remember that MT is not the only system that teaches dirty boxing. The Filipino arts teach use of the headbutts, knees, and elbows as well. Which is where Jeet Kune Do got it from.

I know your a big believer in stances and you argue that in MMA you have to be ready for the take down. And that using those knee chambers would require a more rigid upright stance.

While this may be true. You have to look at guys like Anderson Silva, David Loiseau, GSP, Brian Swick, And Cung Lee who all use the very same chamber when they kick.

Because it's not just about using one stance but about movement, your constantly in motion occupying different ranges. These ranges determine the tools you use from the particular arts you picked.

Your not in danger of being taken down if your in long range, or if your opponent is retreating. These are the ranges from which kicks can be applied right?

No point in boxing from long range, you'd be swinging at air, much like throwing elbows from mid range, you just wouldn't be close enough to make contact.

watch some of the early UFC footage. Stand up grappling was either none existent or just terrible. it wasn't till the Greco Wrestlers came in to change the stand up dirty boxing game with their under hooks,head, shoulder, and wrist control.

Rats I started babbling again and ran off topic didn't I...
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#425131 - 02/17/10 09:29 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Oh yea, there are those TKD guys who choose to remain in those wide forward stance. One such fighter is Bas Rutton. He stays in a wide stance to stuff the take down. For this very reason. He doesn't chamber his round kicks or roundhouse kick.

Don't know if you ever heard of a point circuit champion named Mike Pomberio. He was the #1 point sparring competitor all through out the 90's. While his main style is Kenpo. He supplemented his training with Olympic style TKD in order to improve his kicks.

He later fought for the World Combat League which was partly owned and endorsed by Chuck Norris.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425139 - 02/17/10 11:05 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good posts, Tek9. And good stuff on the Targeting thread in the MA Talk forum, too.
_________________________
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#425151 - 02/17/10 11:57 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
Matxtx my man you are almost there. Thats what I've been trying to say all along. You are right it's not about the style but more about the training methods.
And for this very reason is why you need to stop focusing on TKD as a style. But instead see it as a range of fighting from which it's techniques can be applied.

Olympic style TKD has revolutionized the way kicks are done.
This is so true IMHO. We know the kicks in TKD evolved because they needed to in order to be successful in theor sports matches.

Somewhere along the way, far too many TKD students learned a watered down activity that took hold in the MAs boom when the kids started in the classes. Much too many Dojangs opened up with far too many unqualifed baby sitters, not fighters or MARTIAL artists. The focus is sadly long gone for too many. We now have subsequent generations of TKD instructors who did not come up with much of a fighting base. Until TKD centers train & emphasize reality, little will change IMNSHO

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#425422 - 02/22/10 09:51 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
TaekwondoFan

In another thread you asked me something along the lines about how I feel that sparring for sport is different than sparring for real life combat?

Because I don't know the name of the thread I suppose I'll answer you in this one. Since the title of the thread seems appropriate.

To me sparring for sports, self defense and fighting is all the same. Sparring is sparring. A vehicle to practice the physical tools in your arsenal using a live and resisting opponent. Depending on the limitation of the kind of sparring you do sets up the perimeters of your practice.

For instance if you choose to use Olympic style sparring, then you will only be utilizing your kicks, if you do boxing style sparring then you will only be using punches, with judo sparring you do sweeps and throws, if you practice bjj sparring then you limit yourself to ground techniques.

Those kinds of sparring if you practice them in sport are only allowing you to prepare for someone within that style or sport. for instance a boxer only goes against a boxer, a TKDER only goes again a TKDER.

My point is. I don't see fighting...real fighting until I am in close quarter range (trapping range). For me a fight doesn't begin until I am in range that I can use my most deadliest of tools.

The difference between sport sparring and sparring for real combat is that real combat doesn't start until I can use eye gouges, head butts, knees, and elbows.

Sparring from long and mid range is basically sport. Two guys exchanging blows. shot for shot. They have weight classes for this kind of thing. That way the guys are equal. It's sport.

But for me a shorter person of 5'7 going against a guy who is 6'1. There is no way I'm going to kick box or plain box this dude. All things being equal in skill. That person has the advantage on me because of his physical attributes alone. Whether it's his strength or his reach. Staying long and mid sparring range will only set me up for this guy to knock me out. So I have to get in close range. Close enough for me to inflict damage on him.

The way I do that is by using my sparring tools such as footwork, feints, and timing in order to get inside, up close to wear I can cheat and use dirty tricks.

Cheating in this case means I am no longer fighting this person within the perimeters of kick boxing and boxing. I'm now using dirty boxing. Eye gouging to distract, HBK's to attack within. My most brutal arsenal from the most brutal range.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425619 - 03/02/10 02:29 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Hi Tek.
I am on the right track for me as training against good Muay Thai and MMA people has proven to me what I am saying. No theory. And in studying the top MMA guys.
I cant speak for anyone else as I dont know how they train so im not going to say I am right everyone is wrong. Thats not the place im coming from when I discuss here.

You make good points. I think overall we agree that TKD ,like any style, has to be adapted to work in an MMA/NHB enviroment against another skilled,person.

I dont believe that at a certain range you can change stances or pick ways to do things when going up against another skilled person. The fight is a whole thing changing very fast so at every oppurtunity you have to be ready to be ready to deal with kicking,handfighting,clinching, striking and the ground.And be ready to attack with this stuff. If im in a kicking range and i set myself up to kick Olympic TKD style I might get away with it yet the high percentage tells me I wont.
I will be vunerable to everything else. Its not worth it.

The people you mentioned I would only take GSP and Silva as worthy examples as they up with the best and fight the best. They have great wrestling and BJJ so can get away with doing it more
Also the kick they do like that,if they do mainly is high. They also vary. Even in MT I recognised one way to kick high as basicaly Olympic TKD high kicking. It has its place yet its low percentage. To the body and low is not TKD style. And there are reasons.
Front kicks its too hard to say what style ,no style has a major different way to do them. Of course there are d ifferent kinds and angles to use.
Side kicks are very low percent at the top level. They might work just like anything might.

Its not worth throwing so much away just to kick like TKD kicks,unless its adapted alot,then it becomes something else.
Thats why its not seen.
Its also ok for us here to do what we talk about yet we are not fighting against the people these are. I am not just fighting TKD people anymore so its not as easy to apply.Believe me Iv have tried.
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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#426238 - 03/31/10 06:23 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Sorry, but Mark Weir was a former TKD world champion (Chang Hon style) and he scored one of the fastest UFC knockouts against Eugene jackson (10 seconds). He also had a real ding-dong fight with Alex Reid in Extreme Brawl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxd-aT3QBo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Weir


Edited by trevek (03/31/10 06:32 PM)
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#426493 - 04/16/10 12:57 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Hi.
I dont see your point.
He has adapted his TKD and also looked into other areas like Clinch and groundwork to the point where you would not know he did TKD unless you found out he had.
The OP was wondering why its not represented that much.It might be but its not obviouse because its changed and adapted to MMA.Just like every thing is, be it wrestling MT,boxing.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#428178 - 07/08/10 08:07 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
mmafight123 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 2
Nice Post

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#428252 - 07/12/10 06:08 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: mmafight123]
hotrice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 22
when you guys say that olympic tkd revolutioned kicking, in what way. is it the chambering or the footwork. can you guys give specific examples.

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