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#424908 - 02/12/10 01:44 AM Why exactly do we need targets?
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I tend to think in the abstract, which is why my friends say my head is in the clouds, so forgive my silly questions sometimes.

In all my years of training in TKD, I have always used a kicking target and/or kicking bag. I understand that a kicking bag is needed to increase hitting power, but I never understood why that's so. I mean, if you kick or punch with the same power, you should, in theory, have the same power as if you had a bag in front of you.

I know the theory is not correct, but can someone explain why?


Edited by TaekwonDoFan (02/12/10 01:44 AM)

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#424910 - 02/12/10 02:10 AM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Do you mean in regards to striking the air at full power should you not wish to invest in a heavy bag?

If so, the main issue is safety. When you hit a punchbag, you transmit the force/energy into it, and this then reduces the risk of the joints hyperextending and muscles pulling from triggering stretch reflex whilst still extending.

There is also to consider that unless your technique actually hits something, the finer things such as fist/wrist alignment, foot position, centre of gravity, are much more difficult to ingrain correctly - you dont want the first kick you ever throw in sparring/competition/whatever, to break your toe and see you falling backwards on your a$$ wink

I think there is an issue of when to introduce target work, especially heavybag, as if beginners get obsessed with it, then footwork, technique, combinations etc tend to go out of the window for just belting the hell out of what is effectively a static, passive oponent. Thus their actual skill can be neglected in persuit of what feels 'satisfying' to do.

Focus mitts/kick paddles are a bit better, as they can be unpredictable, get you moving, and make you think about your relationship with another human when transmitting your strikes.

So, yes, for long term safety, and as a practical tool to condition the body to deal with forces of impact, and a tool for guaging power/technique improvement, I think targets are important and necessary.

Like any equipment, they can cause problems instead of fixing them if used incorrectly.
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#424911 - 02/12/10 02:19 AM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: Cord]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
That sounds about right.

I'm thinking of getting back to TKD - I used to have good technique, but my power hitting wasn't that good. Maybe I should get a bag.

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#424912 - 02/12/10 04:20 AM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
well, the idea is is that technique must precede power, and whilst you will have 'muscle memory' regarding technique, its probably a better plan to go back to class, let an instructor iron out all the bad habits and loss of technique a layoff always ingenders, and then , once back in the swing of things, you could discuss pad/bag work with your instructor as a method of increasing technique power smile
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#424920 - 02/12/10 07:57 AM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: Cord]
paul40 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
your mind needs feedback to develope accuracy and power.

same as driving around a corner in your car,everytime you drive around it, your mind learns something new and will automatically make adjustmnents the next time you drive around it.as the a result the cornner gets easier.speed and accuracy will automatically increase.your mind needs to feel the bumps and feel the the car`react.

hitting without a target would be the same asdriving in a simulator,just going through the motions without and feelings for feedback.

this can actually build a false sense of accomplishment,if you try to hit something real hard,you could break your hand due to your body not knowing how to adjust itself for impact.

this is why board breaking was such an important part of the traditional martial arts curriculum.
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#424923 - 02/12/10 11:41 AM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: paul40]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Cord, I agree with you - technique comes first, then speed and power.

Paul, I haven't been able to decide if board/brick breaking is a good training technique, because, like Bruce Lee, I think there's too much clutter in the martial arts, but you've given me something to think about.

I'd be interested in learning about that famous 3-inch punch.


Edited by TaekwonDoFan (02/12/10 11:42 AM)

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#424924 - 02/12/10 12:11 PM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
paul40 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
that 3 inch punch brings together all of you,all your training,your life,understanding your ki energy and how to tap it.your entire life explodes in those 3 inches

point to ponder.

board breaking is a tool , understanding your own anatomy and how cetain muscles contract and relax just by turning your hand before impact.or slight hip rotation that works with your body structure these are thinjgs your mind learns through impact.

ki energy topic is a good one.ill start that thread later.something ive always a alot of interest in.not the no touch knockout garbage either.just understanding how to harness your own power and explode it through your extemities.
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#424925 - 02/12/10 12:16 PM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: paul40]
paul40 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
Not trying to double post but i typed this on aonther forum



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Re:Is brick and board breaking necessary? - 2010/01/28 11:14
Ok, rickster.

Lets take this another route;

Analogy

I for my work operate heavy equipment,mostly backhoe work.I grew up around this work and always watched the guys operate the backhoe,so i knew how to dig, how to dig safe, i learned all the tricks to moving the machine by using the bucket,how to dig grade etc,but until you actually sit in the chair and grab a lever and move it you dont realize all that is nessassary to operate this machine.

You watch the verterans swing the bucket all over the place all movements are fluent.

You get your chance to try it.
You barley touch one lever and bucket flies 20 ft to the right.

The realization now sets in,this is alot harder than it looks.So you start reading the diagrams,to see what lever moves what.2 levers move the bucket 10 different ways.

You begin breaking white boards,or begin to move the arm of the bucket outward

Add a board,lower the boom as the arm swings out with the other lever.

Add a board,curl the bucket as the boom reaches the ground

Add a board,dig backward

Add a board,hold grade as you dig backward using the other lever.

In time your mind and body have harmonized with the fluid that moves the bucket in all directions and without thought,the slightest movement of the machine is automatic to you.You have become one with the machine, so to speak

You have now conditioned yourself to break large stacks of wood,not because I overpowered the machine but because in repetition my mind conditioned my body to break the boards.With every hit your brain is like a computer that processes info and will relay corrections to your muscles.You mind will twist your hand a split second before the last time to achieve maximum muscle involvement or whatever,

With every movement of the lever you learn and become more proficient with your mechanics.

Before you know it your digging like the pros,all conditioned learning.

Before you know it your punch is ten times more powerful and accurate.

Just punching a heavy bag, wont tell your brain what to correct because nothing breaks or measures impact force.Something has to give way to measure.

Hand condtioning is a added bonus, but punching sand would be more useful.sand will grind into the skin and create more calous.

Many pro breakers punch sand to condition there hands for breaking.

There isnt too many techniques in martial arts that are useless.

Knowledge is power.Ignorance is blind.
_________________________
Just so you know, I am a liar. only fair to tell you before you waste time reading my words.

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#424926 - 02/12/10 12:34 PM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: paul40]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:
Just punching a heavy bag, wont tell your brain what to correct because nothing breaks or measures impact force.Something has to give way to measure.


Hmmmm. Legions of boxers, kickboxers and MMA folk will disagree with that.
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#424936 - 02/12/10 06:27 PM Re: Why exactly do we need targets? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I would say the important thing is what can you do to a skilled man trying to hit you back? Can you get power there?

A bag and pads are ok indicators but they dont act like people and the angles you can get on a person to cause damage to them that may not seem or look powerfull from and person watching and can be surprising.For example To knock out someone you have to rapidly make their head rotate. So 'clipping' the chin at the right angle might do more than a so called powerfull punch straight to their face.
Look at Anderson Silva knock someone out as he was going backwards almost. That was timing and angles and it didnt look amazingly powerfull. It would of looked and felt crap on a bag I bet.
Bags and pads are great aids yet not subsitutes for skilled opponents.
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