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#424654 - 01/31/10 08:10 PM random question.
BigT92 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 1
i seen a boxing match not to long ago. no one would make the frist move. then one moved in and fake a right haymaker and the other ducked and right when he ducked the one tat faked came up with a left uppercut. Is this a good way to start a boxing match in your favor?

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#424662 - 02/01/10 12:36 PM Re: random question. [Re: BigT92]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Fakes are a geat idea, and are used in boxing and kickboxing all the time. The worst hits to take are the ones you don't see coming! smile
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#424696 - 02/02/10 05:22 PM Re: random question. [Re: MattJ]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
We used to coach guys doing large tournaments and facing someone they haven't seen fight to come out of the initial faceoff with everything they had. Just a way to test the opponent. Either you'll completely run over them, in which case keep doing it. Or, you'll get stopped cold. In that case you will have to use more strategy. This is a very advanced (some may see it as a very basic) fake in the form of feigned over-aggression. (I think that's the best way to put it) But, to answer the OP's question, starting off a fight with a feint is a way to learn your opponent's reactions. If it works, you get a great opening. If not, you try something else. And that first one always works better than any time after it. Even fighters can learn. wink
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#424842 - 02/09/10 01:51 PM Re: random question. [Re: JMWcorwin]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
At a seminar with Rick Faye, he put forward the concept that a fake is always more effective if the dummy technique, is the last successful strike to land.

For example, if you land a clean right cross, then soon after fake a right cross, your oponent's instinct to react as you wish will be stronger, as it is bolstered by a memory of the reality from moments before.

Have to say we had plenty of fun in sparring trying this out, and even when conscious of it, it certainly felt true.
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#424843 - 02/09/10 02:28 PM Re: random question. [Re: Cord]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Well, one thing I do know from experience is that there's a pretty simple way to lure someone into doing almost any particular attack in sparring: land that attack on them first. Someone catches a roundhouse to the face, or whereever, almost invariably they will respond with a very similar kick very soon after. Usually the very next shot. Men, especially fighter's, have inherent ego usually that drives that payback instinct. You take a shot, you feel you have to redeem and return with one.

Now, I'm not saying this is always, but it's a good rule of thumb. You want someone to kick? Kick them. Some people can play that chess game another shot out and FAKE the return and use that to open up something else.

So Cord, in relation, I could see that as a probable reaction. That one I haven't played too much. We usually play the other side of that coin. Faking that first shot for the flinch is viable. But, we tend to do something along those lines to limit the opponents toolbox. Make them pay for trying to punch by kicking. So they kick. Make them pay for that by throwing them. Now they're out of their normal game and don't want to kick or punch, so you use that opp. to start punching. Would work the other direction for a grappler. Part of why Royce always pretended he was going to punch or kick at fight openings in the very first few UFC. Be realistic, they were nothing to do any damage, just make them protect against punching and kicking so you can shoot easier. (and of course I'm talking fun and games sparring, mostly, not self defense.)

**And just to avoid the flame from you hardcore MMA guys, I do realize that the game has evovled a bit and Royce, or Joe Blo BJJ'er, wouldn't think they could get away with, or even try to get away with those half puch or kick fakes they used back in UFC 1 when we had all let the necessity for ground game take a back burner for so long. Even the heaviest grapplers in the game all get well trained in quality punching and kicking techniques. That sport has evolved soooo much since then. Remember when you could grab hair and head butt? I'm gonna have to fire up the ole' VHS. laugh
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#424848 - 02/09/10 04:53 PM Re: random question. [Re: JMWcorwin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I agree with your observation, and its always the one that I saw a pattern of myself - especially in savate - where often you do see people go kick for kick (in sparring more than competition), but what we found was that both patterns had potential to be exploited, so, to follow a progression through using both observations symbioticaly, and bear in mind that savate is one of the purest striking sports (no clinch or catching whatsoever):

You land a right kick to the shin, knowing that something similar will be returned within a few seconds, you use this to send your fake out there using the premise I mentioned and get maximum reaction meaning a greater chance of your 'real' technique hitting a target in your favoured predicted area.

Of course, its never that simple is it wink and we will always meet those pesky training partners who are just too switched on, or even play these tricks at our expense, but its always interesting to see these subconscious patterns emerge even in a focused conscious environment like a friendly throwdown, and I think working to minimise these traits in ourselves makes us far better than developing a rock crushing side kick that can be read like a big print kids book smile
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#424852 - 02/09/10 06:38 PM Re: random question. [Re: Cord]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
One of my favorite sparring partners was this really big guy. (I'm 5'6", 165) He had this thing where I'd be trying to position up on him, and whenever I got close his mouth would spread wide like the freakin' Cheshire Cat and he'd say somethng like, "your in my range." or "that's my zone.". It drove me nuts. It took me the longest time to figure out that I needed to attack right as he was making those remarks. However, him being quite a bit better than me, he had something for my new found strategy as well. wink

All in good fun.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#424856 - 02/10/10 01:36 AM Re: random question. [Re: JMWcorwin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Yeah, I think that kinda thing is where you find if you have the mindset for the game - if you spar someeone who makes you feel like a clumsy kid and can zing you almost at will, and you find it strangely enjoyable and approach it as a puzzle to solve, then welcome to MA! If it bruises your ego more than your cheekbones and you feel nothing but frustration, may be time to take up flower arranging as an alternative wink

I tend to have an attack of the 'Griffin's' ie, if someone catches me a good one, it genuinely makes me smile because I think 'Damn that was cool!!' . I honestly never thought of it, but some find it unnerving, while all I am doing is paying a compliment. Go figure smile
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#424883 - 02/10/10 07:02 PM Re: random question. [Re: Cord]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Absolutely, I'm the same way. You beat me on that one, nice! You need that kind of temperament for MA I think. Grandmaster used to push us to fight so hard, up to that point of causing the anger to surface. Then, he'd stop us, turn us around and tell us to breathe. Once we had our composure again, just a few seconds, he'd let us go again. He was training us to fight hard but leave the emotion out of it.

But, what I was referring to with this guy was more a mind game thing. He would get into my head with that grin way before any blows ever got thrown. Marks of a great fighter. Ever find yourself forgetting to fight back with someone becuase you're paying too much attention to the beautiful movements & angles of the guy whooping your a$$? You're like, "wow, he's really good...ouch...wish I had a back kick like that...ooof!...maybe I shoudl try and fight back at some point here....zzzzzzzzz....."what happened? Oh, he straight knocked me TFO!!- Nice! I find such amusement in things like that.


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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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