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#424547 - 01/24/10 01:43 PM My take on the TKD world and its controversies.
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I have a first-degree black belt from the WTF, and I could probably have qualified for a second degree at my prime. I have also studied under one of the founding pioneers of TKD, whose name has been mentioned here, and so I know of the ITF tradition.

I agree that the WTF has been overly politicized, and its rules have taken a lot of the combat techniques out of the art, particularly in regards to hand techniques. I will say, for example, that, when I was a blue belt, I fought a black belt, and I used a hand technique against his head - he was totally unprepared and became incapable of fighting. He never liked me, but, after that, he had a healthy respect for my abilities - and all because of one backhand strike.

I'm not much of a fighter, but I observe people and I draw my conclusions about what I see. I think the WTF has lost a lot of the martial in the martial arts, and its problems with corruption and its political footseeing with the Olypmic committees have degraded its reputation, not to mention its integrity.

The ITF, meanwhile, has fractured into at least three different federations, and those three will fracture further, as each grandmaster goes off on his own and starts his own religion, with him as high priest. These institutions will never get back together again, because of the gigantic egos involved.

I also know of many ITF masters and/or grandmasters who have gone off to start their own unique, special martial arts, again with them as gods. Trouble is, most of them cannot compare to General Choi Hong Hi, Mas Oyama, or Gino Funakoshi. Still, ego is as ego does.

I think that, over time, the various ITF federations will die, because, once their god passes away, so will the federations. I also think that, if the WTF loses its status as the unique guardian of the olympic sport, it will also whittle away, as people leave to form their own schools and institutions. But that's not a bad thing. The history of capitalism and commerce is one of creative destruction - old institutions become rigid and inflexible, and they are replaced by better ones with better ideas. Social hierarchies are broken down, and this leads to social mobility and opportunities for people to move up - and there is a problem with a feudal structure in the martial arts, as no one will deny.

So, yes, there are problems in the TKD world today, and they will hurt TKD. But these problems will also be the catalyst by which a new and better world will emerge.

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#424554 - 01/24/10 06:19 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies. [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I agree with most of what you said, especially the current state of ITF affairs & the future. One thing I would add, while I am not as educated as I would like to be for the other legendary MA founders, Gen Choi did have a big ego. It was one of the reasons why he was able to do what he did.
Also if TKD is dropped from the Olympics I don't think that the WTF or Kukki TKD will fracture. The WTF & KKW get a tremendous amount of support from the SK govt. It is a valuable cultural asset & propaganda tool, so it is not going anywhere. Far too many people around the world think of SK as the mecca of or for TKD, so SK will continue to accomadate them & many around the world will still look there for TKD leadership. The WTF & KKW will adapt as well, which maybe will be a good thing if their rules evolve

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#424556 - 01/24/10 11:27 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Gen Choi did have a big ego. It was one of the reasons why he was able to do what he did.


Most successful people have large egos - it comes with success.

As for the WTF and KKW, you're right - so long as the South Korean government supports them, they will survive. But, if they don't have a monopoly on the Olympics, many of the other countries' TKD schools will just drop the affiliation, because there will be no further reason to bow to the President of the WTF or KKW, when they can bow to each other or themselves.

Furthermore, there seems to be an oversupply of martial arts schools, TKD or otherwise, and, just like the recent bust in real estate, there will be a bust in the martial arts industry.

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#424819 - 02/09/10 01:33 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
One more thing.

One of my friends is a grandmaster in Aikido, and he told me that Aikidokas also have their Aikido wars, and there are now various organizations in the world, each independant from the other. I checked out the Wiki entry on Aikido, which seems to confirm that.

I got curious, so I checked out the Wiki entries on Shotokan Karate as well as Mas Oyama's Karate, and they all also fractured into various organizations after the death of their founder. In no case have those organizations ever gotten back together.

So history will repeat itself with TKD - the organizations have fractured, and they will remain fractured, just as the other martial arts styles have fractured.

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#424830 - 02/09/10 09:10 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Possibly, but there are other examples of MA making it work and staying under a unified banner internationally.

Judo has remained pretty pure (governed by the Kodokan and IJF). It hasn't really split up in to various factions (although there can be various orgs at a national level).

Amateur boxing has been governed solely by the AIBA for close to a century.

IBJJF pretty much runs international BJJ tourneys.

FILA is the only body that runs Freestyle & Greco-Roman Wrestling internationally.

So there are examples of bodies that split up and those that stick together.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#424836 - 02/09/10 11:57 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: Prizewriter]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Hmmm, I never knew that. So, yes, it is possible. But I think that, given the animosity in the TKD world, there will never be unification.

Thanks for the education, bud. smile

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#424845 - 02/09/10 03:59 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Well, I was generalizing to a degree! I mean, you could argue BJJ and Sombo are splits in Judo!!!

I actually think the fact that most of the above are considered sports above everything else is what helps with the unity. They have a common set of rules that associations and individuals across the globe adhere to. Part of this is the Olympic influence IMO.

With TKD, it seems to have been caught between the Eastern ideal of being a traditional method of self-improvement and fighting and the more Western ideal of being a competitive sport. Certainly it's not the only MA to suffer this identity crisis.

As long as you have people who want TKD to be one thing and not another though, you'll never have total unity. Some people think it is better to present modern TKD as a sport, others think it's better for it to retain more "traditional" meaning.

Then again, hasn't there always been differences in opinion about what TKD is and should be, right from the get go (ITFUnity would be better placed to say than me)?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#424850 - 02/09/10 05:56 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: Prizewriter]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
What's BJJ again?

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#424853 - 02/09/10 08:01 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#424854 - 02/09/10 09:30 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: MattJ]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Interesting. I wonder how it compares to Hapkido and Aikido.

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#424864 - 02/10/10 09:01 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Gen Choi did have a big ego. It was one of the reasons why he was able to do what he did.
Most successful people have large egos - it comes with success.
Yes great point! All successfull or driven people need an ego to have the drive or be successful. At some point an ego can be too large & it can cause problems. We see that this did affect Gen Choi with some of his best people & did hamper some of his efforts

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#424865 - 02/10/10 09:07 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
As for the WTF and KKW, you're right - so long as the South Korean government supports them, they will survive. But, if they don't have a monopoly on the Olympics, many of the other countries' TKD schools will just drop the affiliation, because there will be no further reason to bow to the President of the WTF or KKW, when they can bow to each other or themselves.
Furthermore, there seems to be an oversupply of martial arts schools, TKD or otherwise, and, just like the recent bust in real estate, there will be a bust in the martial arts industry.
Good points, we do have an over supply in many areas of MA schools. I would add that it is more accurately to say an over supply of schools that claim in name to be a MA school, when more of them are baby sitting services in MA PJs.
Ok so we agree that the WTF & KKW will survive because of the govt support, as TKD has become an important cultural asset for SK. However I think while many schools or groups may drop or loosen a connection to these groups if they lose Olympic status, many will stay as they find an attraction to get a certificate from the so called "mecca of TKD" & many think the training in TKD in SK is at some special level, when it really is not more than a sport, played by kids over there, with basically only the very successful sticking with it to adulthood

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#424866 - 02/10/10 09:09 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I got curious, so I checked out the Wiki entries on Shotokan Karate as well as Mas Oyama's Karate, and they all also fractured into various organizations after the death of their founder. In no case have those organizations ever gotten back together. So history will repeat itself with TKD - the organizations have fractured, and they will remain fractured, just as the other martial arts styles have fractured.
Yes this is a good point for original TKD as a MA

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#424867 - 02/10/10 09:20 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Possibly, but there are other examples of MA making it work and staying under a unified banner internationally.
Judo has remained pretty pure (governed by the Kodokan and IJF). It hasn't really split up in to various factions (although there can be various orgs at a national level).
Amateur boxing has been governed solely by the AIBA for close to a century.
IBJJF pretty much runs international BJJ tourneys.
FILA is the only body that runs Freestyle & Greco-Roman Wrestling internationally.
So there are examples of bodies that split up and those that stick together.
Ok these are good examples. I know little about BJJ so my comments do not reflect this. These are all sports or competitions based from fighting systems.
TKD was 1st developed as a MMA for SD. However, there were more than 1 path taken in its development. Another path was along a martial sport that was so successful that it gained official Olympic sport status, that already had judo, wrestling & boxing. So if one examines this more closely, you will see it is mainly or mostly the unique sports rules that are followed, not a MA. So in the case of TKD, schools do what they want, but compete under a standard rules set of the WTF. Depending on the emphasis on these sports rules often dictates the MA completeness of a particular school.
Now in the case of original TKD, the thing that kept them together was the principle founder of TKD, Gen Choi. Once he passed away, that magnet & thread was forever gone. The Kukki or WTF TKD guys never banded around Gen Choi, nor did they claim that there was A founder of TKD. In fact they started & perpetrated that often quoted myth that TKD is 2,000 years old. They credit no one. They are kept together by the Olympic sports rules.
So we even see that in TKD there are 2 main groups with 2 main ways to look at it, with different results, as well as different prospects for moving forward & the degree that fragmentation will continue to set in & take hold


Edited by ITFunity (02/10/10 09:23 AM)

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#424868 - 02/10/10 09:25 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Hmmm, I never knew that. So, yes, it is possible. But I think that, given the animosity in the TKD world, there will never be unification.
Never is a long time. There can be some unity if the various groups join the WTF & band together with a common set of sports rules. You will see some ITFers take this route

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#424869 - 02/10/10 09:35 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Well, I was generalizing to a degree! I mean, you could argue BJJ and Sombo are splits in Judo!!!
I actually think the fact that most of the above are considered sports above everything else is what helps with the unity. They have a common set of rules that associations and individuals across the globe adhere to. Part of this is the Olympic influence IMO.
With TKD, it seems to have been caught between the Eastern ideal of being a traditional method of self-improvement and fighting and the more Western ideal of being a competitive sport. Certainly it's not the only MA to suffer this identity crisis.
As long as you have people who want TKD to be one thing and not another though, you'll never have total unity. Some people think it is better to present modern TKD as a sport, others think it's better for it to retain more "traditional" meaning.
Then again, hasn't there always been differences in opinion about what TKD is and should be, right from the get go (ITFUnity would be better placed to say than me)?

I think you & I are in agreement for the most part. I would only add that it is so important to know the history of TKD & how it developed, along with the factors that shaped this development. We know politics played a very BIG part, as did nationalist fervor. What many don't realize & what is becoming more clearer today, is that not only is TKD NOT 2,000 years old, but there were different paths of development. One path by individuals (independents, the larger group), 1 path led Gen Choi (military or Chang Hon TKD, the most cohesive group) or the sports group led by the WTF (Kukki TKD, the strongest & most influential group).
So in SK today & for some time now, TKD is developed as a martial sport. It is more of an overseas thing that the MA is emphasized, as not many people would join a foreign sport. But people around the world are drawn to a MA. So people join a MA school, but at times get only a martial sport, depending on the emphasis placed in that individual school. So it is an Olympic sport, delivered at times via a MA wrapper

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#425104 - 02/16/10 10:42 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
A couple years back there was a great two part article in Black Belt Times written by Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez, called "Traditional vs Sport: Would the Real Taekwondo Please Stand up"

In his article Perez goes over TKD's stylistic differences in kicking techniques, the two styles approach to combat, and how they came to be different. He then goes over the true history of Olympic style TKD and how the Korean government missed it's chance solidify TKD's true origins as a purely Korean martial sport separate from "Traditional" TKD which is actually Japanese Karate.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425111 - 02/17/10 12:36 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TeK9]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
TKD IS Korean/Japanese Karate - the founder, General Choi Hong Hi, was a 2nd Dan in Shotokan Karate, and all TKD schools use the Japanese belt system.

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#425152 - 02/17/10 12:01 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
In his article Perez goes over TKD's stylistic differences in kicking techniques, the two styles approach to combat, and how they came to be different. He then goes over the true history of Olympic style TKD and how the Korean government missed it's chance solidify TKD's true origins as a purely Korean martial sport separate from "Traditional" TKD which is actually Japanese Karate.
Could you eloborate on this last point please? thanks

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#425153 - 02/17/10 12:06 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
TKD IS Korean/Japanese Karate - the founder, General Choi Hong Hi, was a 2nd Dan in Shotokan Karate, and all TKD schools use the Japanese belt system.
I think this is essentially correct. However it does not seem to take into account how the 2 main thrusts of TKD's development moved it away from its Japanese karate roots. Now to a casual observer, some may say, yes it is all the same. However for certain MAists, some will also see the evolution & come to a conclusion it has made its way into its own unique KMA. This of course is all very subjective & a matter of personal perception. But then again, all types of fighting systems share so much in common, perhaps even more than that which seperates them, of course, this still may be a matter of personal perception. But to me a punch is a punch & a front snap kick is still a front snap kick & a throw is still a throw, etc etc etc

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#425170 - 02/17/10 05:31 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Let's face it, ITF TKD can be just as silly. The last ITF place I was at was a farce. The so-called grandmaster had lost his heart in the subject, his sparring patterns were awkward, and his students looked down on him. In fact, he bought over one of the better schools in the locale and ran it into the ground.

So, yes, WTF has been watered down, but ITF isn't that much better.

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#425171 - 02/17/10 07:38 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Let's face it, ITF TKD can be just as silly. The last ITF place I was at was a farce. The so-called grandmaster had lost his heart in the subject, his sparring patterns were awkward, and his students looked down on him. In fact, he bought over one of the better schools in the locale and ran it into the ground. So, yes, WTF has been watered down, but ITF isn't that much better.
Ok not sure where I pointed any finger at the WTF, or stated the ITF was not as watered down, but be that as it may, I am not sure you were at an ITF school. Gen Choi promoted only 7 people to GM, which for the ITF is 9th degree. Since his passing only about 4 others haqve made it to 9th dan until the last year, when about a dozen of the most senior 8th Dans were promoted by the various ITFs.
So can you explain how this school you had experience was an ITF school?

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#425221 - 02/18/10 01:22 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
I am not sure you were at an ITF school. Gen Choi promoted only 7 people to GM, which for the ITF is 9th degree. Since his passing only about 4 others haqve made it to 9th dan until the last year, when about a dozen of the most senior 8th Dans were promoted by the various ITFs.
So can you explain how this school you had experience was an ITF school?


I've been thinking about this myself. That last school I mentioned, the grandmaster called himself an 8th dan, but I've been wondering how he got it. I do know he was in financial trouble, and he did run a formerly good school into the ground, so maybe he was just a fraud.

I will say, however, that he did definitely have a TKD background, and he definitely was a black belt, because I know other members of his family. But, as to whether he was an 8th dan or even 7th dan, well, that I don't know.

I'm not even sure how anyone can say this school is an ITF school or non-ITF school, beccause, unlike WTF, there's no proper definition for ITF schools.

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#425229 - 02/18/10 03:36 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I've been thinking about this myself. That last school I mentioned, the grandmaster called himself an 8th dan, but I've been wondering how he got it. I do know he was in financial trouble, and he did run a formerly good school into the ground, so maybe he was just a fraud. I will say, however, that he did definitely have a TKD background, and he definitely was a black belt, because I know other members of his family. But, as to whether he was an 8th dan or even 7th dan, well, that I don't know.
I'm not even sure how anyone can say this school is an ITF school or non-ITF school, beccause, unlike WTF, there's no proper definition for ITF schools.

No actually you have this backwards. A school can not affiliate to the WTF, onloy member nations can. A school can buy a WTF flag & plaque from many MA retailers, but they are just purchasing an item from a store & then hanging it in there school on their own.
Now it is next to impossible to buy an ITF flag or plaque. An ITF Plaque is a numbered plaque that indicates an authorized school affiliated to the ITF, as individual schools can & must register with the ITF. If they do not have that serial numbered plaque, unique to each school, BB applications can not be processed, as it is a required item that must be filled in on the application itself. of course the all important yearly dues must also be paid up to date & I can tell you they do check.
Also BBs must be registered to compete in an official ITF tournament, especially on the world & international stage. One must also have the serial numbered ITF BB cert from current rank to go to the next rank, unless you are a transfer member.
So the ITF is very highly standardized. It is like a network of linked schools, all trying to do the same syllabus, more or less, with the same standard & precise movement. Instrictors must also attend international courses to stay up to date & qualify for prmotion.

None of this exists within the WTF. The WTF is merely a sports governing body for the Olympic sport of TKD. Other than the unique rules, there is little that unites a syllabus or demands a common standard.

The KKW does have a textbook & numerous courses, as well as frequent Dan testings on site. How much attention they place to a standardization, I can not speak to. Maybe someone else can address that.

It seems that if a school simply does the ITF or ChonJi forms, also called Chang Hon patterns, they most people think they are ITF. This is simly not the case, as many of the schools would not even have the proper ITF dobok, issue ITF BB certs, compete in & attend official ITF events, but they don't move in the required exact standard

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#425232 - 02/18/10 04:01 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
There are at least 3 seperate ITF organizations, and each seem to hate the other the way South Korea hates the North. So ITF is definitely not standardized.

To further along that argument, ANYONE can call himself an ITF grandmaster - no one has a monopoly or copyright on the phrase, "International Taekwondo Federation".

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#425235 - 02/18/10 04:52 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
There are at least 3 seperate ITF organizations, and each seem to hate the other the way South Korea hates the North. So ITF is definitely not standardized.
Yes of course there are 3 ITFs. I am not sure if I would agree 100% with the N&S Korea analogy, but I see your point. SK is vary wary of NK & vice versa. However the ITFs even though there are some changes, they are few & minor, but the divide has started & will continue to widen. But few will notice much difference now

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
To further along that argument, ANYONE can call himself an ITF grandmaster - no one has a monopoly or copyright on the phrase, "International Taekwondo Federation".
Actually there are several lawsuits & trademark protections around the world & in some places people are being forced in court or threaten by same not to use the name. You are again correct that anyone can call themselves a ITF GM, but only 9th dans have the title of GM in the ITF. That is their rule, so if someone doesn't follow it, while that is their option, it is a red flag that they are not an official registered ITF school. So maybe I should have made my point more clearer, sorry, but to me, my definition of an ITF school is 1 that is restired with a serial numbered affiliation plaque showing that they are an authorized school of the ITF, they wear the unique ITF dobok that joins in the middle either with a zipper or velcro & has the distinctive black trim for BBs & then for 4th degree certified international instructors & above, they wear the patch, issue an ITF cert signed by a current ITF president, compete under ITF tournament rules, including in the up to 5 categories of competition, moving in the required manner & follow at least most of the standard syllabus, as truth be told, no 1, myself included can or does do everything to the T
So I think my definition is different than yours. how do you define ITF?

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#425236 - 02/18/10 05:05 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
How do I define ITF? I have no idea, because I never really thought about it. But, if there are 3 seperate organizations, which organization's registration would you require? If my school is registered with only one, but not the other two, would that be OK? Or, if it's not registered but it has fractured and, with other ITF schools form a fourth organization with their own registration, would they then become ITF schools?What if you and I form our own fifth ITF organization and register ourselves? Would we be ITF?

Registration means nothing.

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#425240 - 02/18/10 06:06 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
How do I define ITF? I have no idea, because I never really thought about it. But, if there are 3 seperate organizations, which organization's registration would you require? If my school is registered with only one, but not the other two, would that be OK? Or, if it's not registered but it has fractured and, with other ITF schools form a fourth organization with their own registration, would they then become ITF schools?What if you and I form our own fifth ITF organization and register ourselves? Would we be ITF? Registration means nothing.
Ok if you don't have any idea of how to define the ITF, I guess this discussion has ran its course. As far as your questions go, I would acknowldge any of the 3 ITFs as ITF, currently. 4th group of course would not be ITF, but they may be ITF like, similiar to the UITF, ICTF & the USTF. if we did a 5th, it also wouldn't qualify as an ITF, but may be another ITF like group or spin off. The determination to me would depend on how close each group keeps to the syllabus.
To me registration is the best indication that a school is an up to date, participating ITF school, nothing more. Wouldn't really know what else could be the measure or critera other than what I posted. So we appear to agree to disagree, which is fine
wink

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#425265 - 02/19/10 06:42 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
There seem to be at least four, if not five ITF organizations, all purporting to bow to General Choi Hong Hi as their deity.

So which one of these would be legit???


Edited by TaekwonDoFan (02/19/10 06:43 PM)

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#425271 - 02/19/10 08:19 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
There seem to be at least four, if not five ITF organizations, all purporting to bow to General Choi Hong Hi as their deity. So which one of these would be legit???
While I take exception to your use of the word deity, as that indicates something above man. To me, gen Choi was a great man, with many flaws, but he accomplished so much & many today have him to thank for what they do in TKD. If not for his drive, dedication, patriotism & ambition, TKD may not have become what it has today. Surely it would not have been named TKD.

Given that, there are of course the splits that resulted in 3 ITFs. There is also the USTF, led by 1 of the 7 that gen Choi promoted to 9th Dan GM, which remained deperate from the ITF after Gen Choi passed away. There then is the UITF which was established by another 1 of the 7 people Gen Choi promoted to the highest level (IX Dan GM). We also can count the ICTF which was formed by some of the pioneers of TKD & is now led by a master from the ITF.

IMHO they are all legit. Is there any that you do not think are legit? What do you mean by legit? All 6 are legitimate organizations that provide benefits to their membership.

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#425272 - 02/19/10 09:17 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
As far as I know, they are ALL legit. But you asked me how I defined ITF, and I said I didn't know, if only because there are so many federations, all of whom presumably hate each other.

WTF is easier to define, but I'm not happy with the Kukkiwon at all, so ease of definition means nothing.

I've had good and bad experiences in both WTF and ITF schools.

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