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#424864 - 02/10/10 09:01 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Gen Choi did have a big ego. It was one of the reasons why he was able to do what he did.
Most successful people have large egos - it comes with success.
Yes great point! All successfull or driven people need an ego to have the drive or be successful. At some point an ego can be too large & it can cause problems. We see that this did affect Gen Choi with some of his best people & did hamper some of his efforts

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#424865 - 02/10/10 09:07 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
As for the WTF and KKW, you're right - so long as the South Korean government supports them, they will survive. But, if they don't have a monopoly on the Olympics, many of the other countries' TKD schools will just drop the affiliation, because there will be no further reason to bow to the President of the WTF or KKW, when they can bow to each other or themselves.
Furthermore, there seems to be an oversupply of martial arts schools, TKD or otherwise, and, just like the recent bust in real estate, there will be a bust in the martial arts industry.
Good points, we do have an over supply in many areas of MA schools. I would add that it is more accurately to say an over supply of schools that claim in name to be a MA school, when more of them are baby sitting services in MA PJs.
Ok so we agree that the WTF & KKW will survive because of the govt support, as TKD has become an important cultural asset for SK. However I think while many schools or groups may drop or loosen a connection to these groups if they lose Olympic status, many will stay as they find an attraction to get a certificate from the so called "mecca of TKD" & many think the training in TKD in SK is at some special level, when it really is not more than a sport, played by kids over there, with basically only the very successful sticking with it to adulthood

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#424866 - 02/10/10 09:09 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I got curious, so I checked out the Wiki entries on Shotokan Karate as well as Mas Oyama's Karate, and they all also fractured into various organizations after the death of their founder. In no case have those organizations ever gotten back together. So history will repeat itself with TKD - the organizations have fractured, and they will remain fractured, just as the other martial arts styles have fractured.
Yes this is a good point for original TKD as a MA

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#424867 - 02/10/10 09:20 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Possibly, but there are other examples of MA making it work and staying under a unified banner internationally.
Judo has remained pretty pure (governed by the Kodokan and IJF). It hasn't really split up in to various factions (although there can be various orgs at a national level).
Amateur boxing has been governed solely by the AIBA for close to a century.
IBJJF pretty much runs international BJJ tourneys.
FILA is the only body that runs Freestyle & Greco-Roman Wrestling internationally.
So there are examples of bodies that split up and those that stick together.
Ok these are good examples. I know little about BJJ so my comments do not reflect this. These are all sports or competitions based from fighting systems.
TKD was 1st developed as a MMA for SD. However, there were more than 1 path taken in its development. Another path was along a martial sport that was so successful that it gained official Olympic sport status, that already had judo, wrestling & boxing. So if one examines this more closely, you will see it is mainly or mostly the unique sports rules that are followed, not a MA. So in the case of TKD, schools do what they want, but compete under a standard rules set of the WTF. Depending on the emphasis on these sports rules often dictates the MA completeness of a particular school.
Now in the case of original TKD, the thing that kept them together was the principle founder of TKD, Gen Choi. Once he passed away, that magnet & thread was forever gone. The Kukki or WTF TKD guys never banded around Gen Choi, nor did they claim that there was A founder of TKD. In fact they started & perpetrated that often quoted myth that TKD is 2,000 years old. They credit no one. They are kept together by the Olympic sports rules.
So we even see that in TKD there are 2 main groups with 2 main ways to look at it, with different results, as well as different prospects for moving forward & the degree that fragmentation will continue to set in & take hold


Edited by ITFunity (02/10/10 09:23 AM)

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#424868 - 02/10/10 09:25 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Hmmm, I never knew that. So, yes, it is possible. But I think that, given the animosity in the TKD world, there will never be unification.
Never is a long time. There can be some unity if the various groups join the WTF & band together with a common set of sports rules. You will see some ITFers take this route

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#424869 - 02/10/10 09:35 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Well, I was generalizing to a degree! I mean, you could argue BJJ and Sombo are splits in Judo!!!
I actually think the fact that most of the above are considered sports above everything else is what helps with the unity. They have a common set of rules that associations and individuals across the globe adhere to. Part of this is the Olympic influence IMO.
With TKD, it seems to have been caught between the Eastern ideal of being a traditional method of self-improvement and fighting and the more Western ideal of being a competitive sport. Certainly it's not the only MA to suffer this identity crisis.
As long as you have people who want TKD to be one thing and not another though, you'll never have total unity. Some people think it is better to present modern TKD as a sport, others think it's better for it to retain more "traditional" meaning.
Then again, hasn't there always been differences in opinion about what TKD is and should be, right from the get go (ITFUnity would be better placed to say than me)?

I think you & I are in agreement for the most part. I would only add that it is so important to know the history of TKD & how it developed, along with the factors that shaped this development. We know politics played a very BIG part, as did nationalist fervor. What many don't realize & what is becoming more clearer today, is that not only is TKD NOT 2,000 years old, but there were different paths of development. One path by individuals (independents, the larger group), 1 path led Gen Choi (military or Chang Hon TKD, the most cohesive group) or the sports group led by the WTF (Kukki TKD, the strongest & most influential group).
So in SK today & for some time now, TKD is developed as a martial sport. It is more of an overseas thing that the MA is emphasized, as not many people would join a foreign sport. But people around the world are drawn to a MA. So people join a MA school, but at times get only a martial sport, depending on the emphasis placed in that individual school. So it is an Olympic sport, delivered at times via a MA wrapper

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#425104 - 02/16/10 10:42 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
A couple years back there was a great two part article in Black Belt Times written by Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez, called "Traditional vs Sport: Would the Real Taekwondo Please Stand up"

In his article Perez goes over TKD's stylistic differences in kicking techniques, the two styles approach to combat, and how they came to be different. He then goes over the true history of Olympic style TKD and how the Korean government missed it's chance solidify TKD's true origins as a purely Korean martial sport separate from "Traditional" TKD which is actually Japanese Karate.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425111 - 02/17/10 12:36 AM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TeK9]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
TKD IS Korean/Japanese Karate - the founder, General Choi Hong Hi, was a 2nd Dan in Shotokan Karate, and all TKD schools use the Japanese belt system.

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#425152 - 02/17/10 12:01 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
In his article Perez goes over TKD's stylistic differences in kicking techniques, the two styles approach to combat, and how they came to be different. He then goes over the true history of Olympic style TKD and how the Korean government missed it's chance solidify TKD's true origins as a purely Korean martial sport separate from "Traditional" TKD which is actually Japanese Karate.
Could you eloborate on this last point please? thanks

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#425153 - 02/17/10 12:06 PM Re: My take on the TKD world and its controversies [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
TKD IS Korean/Japanese Karate - the founder, General Choi Hong Hi, was a 2nd Dan in Shotokan Karate, and all TKD schools use the Japanese belt system.
I think this is essentially correct. However it does not seem to take into account how the 2 main thrusts of TKD's development moved it away from its Japanese karate roots. Now to a casual observer, some may say, yes it is all the same. However for certain MAists, some will also see the evolution & come to a conclusion it has made its way into its own unique KMA. This of course is all very subjective & a matter of personal perception. But then again, all types of fighting systems share so much in common, perhaps even more than that which seperates them, of course, this still may be a matter of personal perception. But to me a punch is a punch & a front snap kick is still a front snap kick & a throw is still a throw, etc etc etc

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