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#424386 - 01/15/10 12:58 AM MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do
XxTaexKidxX Offline
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Registered: 01/13/10
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Why is it in the UFC or any other major fighting sport, Tae-Kwon-Do fighters are lacking in the roster. Makes me wonder if Tae-Kwon-Do would help me in my MMA journey or if it would help me in self-defense.
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#424387 - 01/15/10 08:23 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: XxTaexKidxX]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
I have made my opinion (thats all it is) clear on what self-defense is and what fighting is. Basically Martial Arts teach you how to fight, and I don't think fighting = self-defence. I don't want to repeat myself on the forums everytime, and I don't want to de-rail the thread so I'll leave it there. Anyone wants to talk about this with me please PM me.

Anyway, to your main question:

Tradtional Martial Arts in relation to Mixed Martial Arts are like the Amazon Rainforest. There is a lot of great stuff there that has yet to be discovered, and it can have a lot of different uses for people.

Human Nature dictates that more often than not, people take the easy road. I'm not saying MMA is easy by any stretch, but most people want to imitate, not innovate. By that I mean most MMA schools today teach a combination of Wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ and boxing. A lot of people are happy doing that, they don't "think outside the box" and look at other TMA and see if there is any thing or worth to be added to MMA.

I think there may be something of worth in the kicking methods of TKD to someone studying MMA. However, if it were me I would have a few problems actually doing this:

i) To me, the strengths of TKD are it's kick ability and footwork. If you went to a TKD class in terms of adding to your MMA game, you would be better to learn kicking/footwork drills and putting these in to practice in sparring IMHO.

However, most TKD schools will make you do a lot of stuff that won't be of much use in MMA, like forms, step-sparring and "self defence" techniques. So you have to ask yourself would it be better to develop kicking and footwork in a school that doesn't work those superfluous (in your situation) things? I mean, would it be better to go to a Kickboxing/Muay Thai/San da club instead of TKD?

ii) Learning TKD to the point where you would develop great kicking/footwork would take a lot of time and effort, and this may be to the detriment of your MMA study.

iii) In the context of fighting, you have to think about how important kicking is as a skill. Again, and this is just me, I rate kicking as the least important skill in terms of unarmed fighting. So kicking, and by extension, TKD, wouldn't be a priority for me.

I know there are TKD schools out there who train other ranges apart from kicking, like punching and grappling, but IMO there are better systems (i.e. boxing and freestyle wrestling) to learn those skills than TKD.





Edited by Prizewriter (01/15/10 09:32 AM)
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#424388 - 01/15/10 10:46 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Prizewriter]
MattJ Offline
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Prize gave some good answers. Google David Loiseau's MMA fights, though. He is someone that uses a lot of TKD in his MMA.
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#424402 - 01/16/10 10:01 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: XxTaexKidxX]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Originally Posted By: XxTaexKidxX
Why is it in the UFC or any other major fighting sport, Tae-Kwon-Do fighters are lacking in the roster. Makes me wonder if Tae-Kwon-Do would help me in my MMA journey or if it would help me in self-defense.


Personal opinion only,
The main problem I see with Tae Kwon Do as applied to UFC type fighting is the same problem you will find with many fighting systems that attempt to compete using different competition rules than what that fighting system was set up for.

Many people will argue my next point but I am convinced that I am correct in my assessment. TKD is considered to be a hard style fighting system when it is taught correctly meaning that many of the targets that would prove to be useful in real SD applications are eliminated by rules for competitions. Now one will argue that this applies to all MA and this would be correct. The problem with TKD is that when you eliminate most of these targets there isn’t much left that makes for entertaining competition. Competitions utilize many of TKD”s weaker aspects for the sake of safety. Karate and other hard style fighting systems face this dilemma also and do not show case well in UFC fighting. You will not see any of the main weapons of these arts because it simply cannot be done safely. These same hard style-fighting systems suffer when it comes to there own competitions; many consider them boring to watch myself included. All this has contributed to the UFC”s success and the misunderstanding that this type of fighting is the most affective SD.

Just a couple examples,
Chops to vital areas such as neck and face.
Kicks to vital areas such as knees and the list goes on and on. However you can apply the main weapons of many fighting styles safely (the take down) Judo, wrestling, BJJ ect.
For striking you can safely apply boxing, but many of TKD”S and Karate’s main weapons and targets are off limits.

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#424412 - 01/16/10 07:40 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: von1]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Perhaps because the vast majority of "TKD" people fight WTF rules which is a recipe for disaster in MMA unless you radicaly change your training. As noted, there are some with TKD Training. I believe Stepahn Bonner was another. He was also a golden Gloves champ and a Carlson Gracie Student.

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#424423 - 01/17/10 10:18 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: EarlWeiss]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
Perhaps because the vast majority of "TKD" people fight WTF rules which is a recipe for disaster in MMA unless you radicaly change your training. As noted, there are some with TKD Training. I believe Stepahn Bonner was another. He was also a golden Gloves champ and a Carlson Gracie Student.



The correct statement would be that many TKD people compete WTF style that doesn’t mean we fight WTF style. You assume much. You assume that people that compete WTF rules do not train to fight as other TKD people and that is flat wrong. We train every aspect of TKD and also incorporate techniques from other arts.

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#424424 - 01/17/10 11:21 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: EarlWeiss]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
Perhaps because the vast majority of "TKD" people fight WTF rules which is a recipe for disaster in MMA unless you radicaly change your training. As noted, there are some with TKD Training. I believe Stepahn Bonner was another. He was also a golden Gloves champ and a Carlson Gracie Student.



Regarding Stephn Bonner you are correct which proves my point. How many effective TKD techniques have you ever seen him use in the ring ( NONE) they are simply not allowed and for good reason. He may throw an occasional TKD kick here and there but the rules of UFC are geared more towards back yard brawling than militaristic SD that most hard style fighting systems teach. This is why these styles will never show case well in back yard brawling situations. TKD”s and other hard style fighting systems most effective targets are eliminated by rules. Many are even eliminated on the street by law unless under extreme circumstances. Many schools are not even teaching them because the instructors have ignored them for sake of sport (this includes all factions of TKD not just WTF schools) or the instructors don’t know them well enough to teach them. When the proper techniques and targets are taught TKD is an extremely dangerous SD art but you take these away and one is not left with much. A simple jumping snap kick to the chin is easy to set up, quick, and easy to deliver, but I assume it is not allowed in UFC fighting, for I have yet to see anyone use it in UFC fighting, and this kick is not even one of TKD”S best weapons.


Edited by von1 (01/17/10 11:26 AM)

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#424448 - 01/19/10 08:02 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: von1]
MattJ Offline
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Von1 -

Front kicks to the face are allowed, and have been done quite often. Kicks to the leg/knee are also done quite often. I assume that "chops" are allowed to the face, since hammerfists are done often, and hammerfists are just closed-hand chops (same striking surface). Probably fighters are worried about breaking their fingers with chops. FWIW.
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#424484 - 01/21/10 10:14 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: von1
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
Perhaps because the vast majority of "TKD" people fight WTF rules which is a recipe for disaster in MMA unless you radicaly change your training. As noted, there are some with TKD Training. I believe Stepahn Bonner was another. He was also a golden Gloves champ and a Carlson Gracie Student.

The correct statement would be that many TKD people compete WTF style that doesn’t mean we fight WTF style. You assume much. You assume that people that compete WTF rules do not train to fight as other TKD people and that is flat wrong. We train every aspect of TKD and also incorporate techniques from other arts.
I believe both staements have truth in them. Just because you may compete in WTF rules tournaments, does not mean your training lacks real fighting or good SD training. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of the schools that teach TKD do sadly concentrate far too much on sports matches. That being said, any type of rules that lack realistic conditions just does not IMNSHO prepare someone for real world fighting, it could even be somewhat counter-productive in some aspects & instances.
That being said we must know the real history of TKD. Since it is very clear that it comes from karate & that the Koreans hated the Japanese, there was a concentrated effort to be different from Japanese karate. In the ROK Army, soldiers under the command of Gen. Choi devised what was a mix of the fighting systems available at the time. They called this new system they were developing TKD. They used the name long before anyone else did.
Another faction in the civilian side, led by GM Lee Chong Woo, moved away from their karate roots using new sports rules 1st developed in the Jidokwan for much the same reason; to be different from the hated Japanese & their karate. Thus the emphasis on sport vs SD.
The more away from SD became more apparent when the commercialism hit TKD big time, as many Koreans moved from a poor developing homeland where freedom did not exist. They set up dojangs around the world, becoming SK's 1st export. SK set up a whole scale support & development system back home to facilitate this, unlike any other government in history. The official exporting of TKD instructors started in Dec of 1962 when Col. Nam Tae Hi, the co-founder of the OhDokwan, the military gym, was sent to SV to train south Vietnamese troops for the war. he stayed there for a whole year, with some 700 Korean TKD instrcutors being sent there over the course of the war.
In addition to the commercialization of TKD, the Karate Kid & Ninja Turtle movies opened TKD & the MAs as a whole to kids, forever changing the scope of the training. Likewise insurance regulations further soften TKD's training. The factory like output of BBs produced far too many who did not have a good grasp on real SD skills, which in turn further watered down the training, helping on a large scale to create the need for MMAs training. It is sad, given the history of TKD, but that is reality.
This watering down & softening of TKD is not limited to any style or group, as it has had the same effect on other MAs as well. Just visit as many as you can in your area & any area you may travel too & you will see what is all too obvious. However some common sense does seem to indicate that if the little fighting you may do, is further hampered by rules that less likely reflect actual combat on the street, then your real life SD skills will suffer, JMNSHO
In addition, all 3 ITFs are doing some type of full contact fighting. They are open to all TKD & MAists, regardless of affiliation. maybe this will help, who knows


Edited by ITFunity (01/21/10 10:15 AM)

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#424511 - 01/22/10 02:07 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
Fruitloopy Offline
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Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
ITFunity,

That's probably one of the best posts you have ever written.
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#424521 - 01/23/10 07:14 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Yes Unity very good information.

The more I read and the more I post on this forum the more befuddled and confused I become. I am the most baffled by the postings of fellow TKD people. I need to really get out and visit more TKD schools to see first hand what the heck is going on out there, is TKD really as bad today as many on this forum say?

On a personal level I have no doubts that my TKD training would serve me well in a SD situation. In fact, my main concern is that I would over do it and end up in jail or get sued. Perhaps we train differently than many TKD people that post on this forum. Or maybe I have focused on the more militaristic tactics of TKD as my instructor is from Korea and taught troops SD in Korea, also I am ex military. Whatever the case I am totally miffed at the things I read on this forum regarding TKD.

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#424523 - 01/23/10 07:40 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: MattJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Von1 -

Front kicks to the face are allowed, and have been done quite often. Kicks to the leg/knee are also done quite often. I assume that "chops" are allowed to the face, since hammerfists are done often, and hammerfists are just closed-hand chops (same striking surface). Probably fighters are worried about breaking their fingers with chops. FWIW.



Matt


I know kicks are allowed to the face but I have watched many MMA matches and have never once witnessed a snap kick delivered right up under the chin. I believe this is not allowed because of the proximity of the throat. Also the chops to the face I am referring to would be delivered to the side of the jaw and other vital areas I need not mention, again I have never seen any of these delivered during an MMA match nor are they trained in MMA fighting. As far as breaking you fingers, if done correctly a chop is no more hazzardous than a punch. Throw a punch wrong broken hand, throw a chop wrong broken fingers.

Have you ever once witnessed a nice hard front sidekick straight to the knee in MMA? (And we all know how fast this kick can be delivered) I haven’t. These examples are just the tip of the ice burg when it comes to effective TKD techniques and targets and I haven’t witnessed any of them in MMA fighting, never, not once.

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#424530 - 01/23/10 10:43 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: von1]
MattJ Offline
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Von -

Not sure what to say here.

Forrest Griffin kicked Tito Ortiz in the face with a front kick in UFC 106, so hard that it knocked Tito's mouthpiece out. Front kick has been used in other matches, too. Totally legal.

Brock Lesnar pounded Frank Mir's face (jaw and everything) with hammerfists in their first meeting - probably the single most common technique used in GnP. Too many examples to even list.

Anderson Silva repeatedly kicked Thales Leites in the knee with sidekicks in UFC 97. Sidekick not a common technique in MMA, but it is not illegal. Roundhouse kicks to the leg/knee are very common, too many to even list.

Not too mention knees and elbows to the face.

And if you check the earlier, few-rule UFC's, you will find the guys doing groin strikes, elbows to the back of the head, kicks to the kidneys, hair grabs, etc. Most of the time those things didn't work too well.

Please check your facts.

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#424542 - 01/24/10 09:12 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: MattJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Matt:

You are correct on all accounts and I can understand your confusion towards my posts. I haven’t figured out how to present my perspective in print clearly so one can understand what I am attempting to convey regarding this matter.

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#424552 - 01/24/10 03:13 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: XxTaexKidxX]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Originally Posted By: XxTaexKidxX
Why is it in the UFC or any other major fighting sport, Tae-Kwon-Do fighters are lacking in the roster. Makes me wonder if Tae-Kwon-Do would help me in my MMA journey or if it would help me in self-defense.


I will give my view as someone who trains in Taekwondo, Muay Thai and MMA.
I do not believe Taekwondo will help you as much for MMA as doing ,Muay Thai or even Boxing. Thats not because Taekwondo is bad or anything it is just harder to adapt technicaly into MMA in regards to matching it up with grappling on the ground and standing both defensivly and attacking. The way kicking is done,the stances taken and the tactics used when learning to fight for Taekwondo puts it further away from the stances ,tactics and type of kicking that is needed For MMA. The better at MMA you want to be the further from TKD you will have to go get. None of the top ranking fighters, who its best to look at to see whats working, use TKD or use it alot. Anderson Silva trained in it ages ago though now he uses or adapts MT for his stand up.
Its not just the actual styles its the training methods that are borrowed too. Taewkondo training methods dont involve all thats needed for a full stand up. Elbows and knees are not trained in the c urriculum to the level of Muay Thai in relation to kicking and for fighting full contact. Elbows and knees in TKD are are trained just not to a high or intense enough level to use in a ring fight against another skilled person.

Adapting TKD could be done its just no ones done it yet to a high level and there's no need to as Muay Thai is easier to adapt. Also it would end up looking or being so similar that people would then argue its not TKD anymore.

Thats my honest view.
I know to get better I will have to stop doing TKD yet I dont think its useless and I enjoy it. It just doesnt fit into MMA easily.
----
My view on SD is that its still a fight of some kind.. a fight to get away or to just survive or whatever. So elements of fighting help and come into play. Being able to fight and useing some of the dirtier stuff from TKD can be of use.
A good ring or cage fighter useing the apparently 'deadly' stuff from TKD in SD will fair better that a non fighter trying to use the 'deadly' stuff from TKD in SD.
Just my personal view.
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#424878 - 02/10/10 02:09 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: matxtx]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 269
I'd agree that TKD often is not practical, but I have seen a Youtube video of a TKD black belt using a spinning kick and knocking a Muay Thai boxer down, for a knockout.

I would also say that an axe kick can overwhelm a knee or elbow strike, which would give the advantage to the black belt.

That said, a true martial artist should learn all tools, and adapt his personal training accordingly. That said, a beginner should master ONE art, then explore, or he could be going from place to place, without really learning anything anywhere.

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#424885 - 02/10/10 10:09 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I'd agree that TKD often is not practical, but........

........, a true martial artist should learn all tools, and adapt his personal training accordingly.
TKD is often not practical because more often than not it is not trained in a practical manner. The 1st line above is the fault of trainers & the methods that they emphasize, which in a simplistic way of looking at it is the ITF concentrates on patterns & the WTF concentrates on sports rules that do not allow so many techniques.
The 2nd line above is almost the exact words of Gen Choi, the founder of original TKD, who stated learn as many of the 3,200 fundamental movements & apply them to the situation at hand, BUT train under as realistic conditions

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#424887 - 02/11/10 01:13 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 269
Quote:
TKD is often not practical because more often than not it is not trained in a practical manner.


I would agree, and I would say both ITF and WTF are equally at fault.


Quote:
The 2nd line above is almost the exact words of Gen Choi, the founder of original TKD, who stated learn as many of the 3,200 fundamental movements & apply them to the situation at hand, BUT train under as realistic conditions


On this, I would quote Bruce Lee, who said it's not daily increase; it's daily decrease, as in decrease the number of useless techniques and concentrate on a few basic but effective ones.

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#424928 - 02/12/10 12:40 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Quote:
TKD is often not practical because more often than not it is not trained in a practical manner.


I would agree, and I would say both ITF and WTF are equally at fault.


Quote:
The 2nd line above is almost the exact words of Gen Choi, the founder of original TKD, who stated learn as many of the 3,200 fundamental movements & apply them to the situation at hand, BUT train under as realistic conditions


On this, I would quote Bruce Lee, who said it's not daily increase; it's daily decrease, as in decrease the number of useless techniques and concentrate on a few basic but effective ones.

Nice post, I agree.
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#425106 - 02/16/10 11:18 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Fruitloopy]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
David Loiseau's
Bas Rutton
Anderson Silva
Cung Le
Stephen Bonner
Maurice Smith

Just a few champs of MMA sport who are all black belts in TKD. And just happen to be kickers in the sport of MMA.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
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#425130 - 02/17/10 09:23 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Originally Posted By: matxtx
Originally Posted By: XxTaexKidxX
Why is it in the UFC or any other major fighting sport, Tae-Kwon-Do fighters are lacking in the roster. Makes me wonder if Tae-Kwon-Do would help me in my MMA journey or if it would help me in self-defense.


I will give my view as someone who trains in Taekwondo, Muay Thai and MMA.
I do not believe Taekwondo will help you as much for MMA as doing ,Muay Thai or even Boxing. Thats not because Taekwondo is bad or anything it is just harder to adapt technicaly into MMA in regards to matching it up with grappling on the ground and standing both defensivly and attacking. The way kicking is done,the stances taken and the tactics used when learning to fight for Taekwondo puts it further away from the stances ,tactics and type of kicking that is needed For MMA. The better at MMA you want to be the further from TKD you will have to go get. None of the top ranking fighters, who its best to look at to see whats working, use TKD or use it alot. Anderson Silva trained in it ages ago though now he uses or adapts MT for his stand up.
Its not just the actual styles its the training methods that are borrowed too. Taewkondo training methods dont involve all thats needed for a full stand up. Elbows and knees are not trained in the c urriculum to the level of Muay Thai in relation to kicking and for fighting full contact. Elbows and knees in TKD are are trained just not to a high or intense enough level to use in a ring fight against another skilled person.

Adapting TKD could be done its just no ones done it yet to a high level and there's no need to as Muay Thai is easier to adapt. Also it would end up looking or being so similar that people would then argue its not TKD anymore.

Thats my honest view.
I know to get better I will have to stop doing TKD yet I dont think its useless and I enjoy it. It just doesnt fit into MMA easily.
----
My view on SD is that its still a fight of some kind.. a fight to get away or to just survive or whatever. So elements of fighting help and come into play. Being able to fight and useing some of the dirtier stuff from TKD can be of use.
A good ring or cage fighter useing the apparently 'deadly' stuff from TKD in SD will fair better that a non fighter trying to use the 'deadly' stuff from TKD in SD.
Just my personal view.


Matxtx my man you are almost there. Thats what I've been trying to say all along. You are right it's not about the style but more about the training methods.

And for this very reason is why you need to stop focusing on TKD as a style. But instead see it as a range of fighting from which it's techniques can be applied. Olympic style TKD has revolutionized the way kicks are done. While true that many styles still kick without chambers, many more styles have integrated Olympic style kicking into their curriculum. Just like back in the days when kick boxing was popular. Kickboxers would study TKD not for the entire art or stylistic differences but for the application of its kicks in conjunction with their hands, which was basically boxing under the guise of "traditional" karate.

Anderson Silva is a perfect example. When he was a guess coach on the UFC coach for Antonio Rodrigo Nogueria he trained his team using the very same kicking methods found in Olympic TKD. Remember Olympic TKD changed it's teaching methods because they're focus became sparring and competition. Without that goal in mind the evolution of traditional kicks would have never took place within TKD.

While true Anderson Silva uses MT to supplement his stand up, you have to remember that MT is not the only system that teaches dirty boxing. The Filipino arts teach use of the headbutts, knees, and elbows as well. Which is where Jeet Kune Do got it from.

I know your a big believer in stances and you argue that in MMA you have to be ready for the take down. And that using those knee chambers would require a more rigid upright stance.

While this may be true. You have to look at guys like Anderson Silva, David Loiseau, GSP, Brian Swick, And Cung Lee who all use the very same chamber when they kick.

Because it's not just about using one stance but about movement, your constantly in motion occupying different ranges. These ranges determine the tools you use from the particular arts you picked.

Your not in danger of being taken down if your in long range, or if your opponent is retreating. These are the ranges from which kicks can be applied right?

No point in boxing from long range, you'd be swinging at air, much like throwing elbows from mid range, you just wouldn't be close enough to make contact.

watch some of the early UFC footage. Stand up grappling was either none existent or just terrible. it wasn't till the Greco Wrestlers came in to change the stand up dirty boxing game with their under hooks,head, shoulder, and wrist control.

Rats I started babbling again and ran off topic didn't I...
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
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#425131 - 02/17/10 09:29 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Oh yea, there are those TKD guys who choose to remain in those wide forward stance. One such fighter is Bas Rutton. He stays in a wide stance to stuff the take down. For this very reason. He doesn't chamber his round kicks or roundhouse kick.

Don't know if you ever heard of a point circuit champion named Mike Pomberio. He was the #1 point sparring competitor all through out the 90's. While his main style is Kenpo. He supplemented his training with Olympic style TKD in order to improve his kicks.

He later fought for the World Combat League which was partly owned and endorsed by Chuck Norris.
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#425139 - 02/17/10 11:05 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
MattJ Offline
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Good posts, Tek9. And good stuff on the Targeting thread in the MA Talk forum, too.
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#425151 - 02/17/10 11:57 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Originally Posted By: TeK9
Matxtx my man you are almost there. Thats what I've been trying to say all along. You are right it's not about the style but more about the training methods.
And for this very reason is why you need to stop focusing on TKD as a style. But instead see it as a range of fighting from which it's techniques can be applied.

Olympic style TKD has revolutionized the way kicks are done.
This is so true IMHO. We know the kicks in TKD evolved because they needed to in order to be successful in theor sports matches.

Somewhere along the way, far too many TKD students learned a watered down activity that took hold in the MAs boom when the kids started in the classes. Much too many Dojangs opened up with far too many unqualifed baby sitters, not fighters or MARTIAL artists. The focus is sadly long gone for too many. We now have subsequent generations of TKD instructors who did not come up with much of a fighting base. Until TKD centers train & emphasize reality, little will change IMNSHO

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#425422 - 02/22/10 09:51 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
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TaekwondoFan

In another thread you asked me something along the lines about how I feel that sparring for sport is different than sparring for real life combat?

Because I don't know the name of the thread I suppose I'll answer you in this one. Since the title of the thread seems appropriate.

To me sparring for sports, self defense and fighting is all the same. Sparring is sparring. A vehicle to practice the physical tools in your arsenal using a live and resisting opponent. Depending on the limitation of the kind of sparring you do sets up the perimeters of your practice.

For instance if you choose to use Olympic style sparring, then you will only be utilizing your kicks, if you do boxing style sparring then you will only be using punches, with judo sparring you do sweeps and throws, if you practice bjj sparring then you limit yourself to ground techniques.

Those kinds of sparring if you practice them in sport are only allowing you to prepare for someone within that style or sport. for instance a boxer only goes against a boxer, a TKDER only goes again a TKDER.

My point is. I don't see fighting...real fighting until I am in close quarter range (trapping range). For me a fight doesn't begin until I am in range that I can use my most deadliest of tools.

The difference between sport sparring and sparring for real combat is that real combat doesn't start until I can use eye gouges, head butts, knees, and elbows.

Sparring from long and mid range is basically sport. Two guys exchanging blows. shot for shot. They have weight classes for this kind of thing. That way the guys are equal. It's sport.

But for me a shorter person of 5'7 going against a guy who is 6'1. There is no way I'm going to kick box or plain box this dude. All things being equal in skill. That person has the advantage on me because of his physical attributes alone. Whether it's his strength or his reach. Staying long and mid sparring range will only set me up for this guy to knock me out. So I have to get in close range. Close enough for me to inflict damage on him.

The way I do that is by using my sparring tools such as footwork, feints, and timing in order to get inside, up close to wear I can cheat and use dirty tricks.

Cheating in this case means I am no longer fighting this person within the perimeters of kick boxing and boxing. I'm now using dirty boxing. Eye gouging to distract, HBK's to attack within. My most brutal arsenal from the most brutal range.
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#425619 - 03/02/10 02:29 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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Hi Tek.
I am on the right track for me as training against good Muay Thai and MMA people has proven to me what I am saying. No theory. And in studying the top MMA guys.
I cant speak for anyone else as I dont know how they train so im not going to say I am right everyone is wrong. Thats not the place im coming from when I discuss here.

You make good points. I think overall we agree that TKD ,like any style, has to be adapted to work in an MMA/NHB enviroment against another skilled,person.

I dont believe that at a certain range you can change stances or pick ways to do things when going up against another skilled person. The fight is a whole thing changing very fast so at every oppurtunity you have to be ready to be ready to deal with kicking,handfighting,clinching, striking and the ground.And be ready to attack with this stuff. If im in a kicking range and i set myself up to kick Olympic TKD style I might get away with it yet the high percentage tells me I wont.
I will be vunerable to everything else. Its not worth it.

The people you mentioned I would only take GSP and Silva as worthy examples as they up with the best and fight the best. They have great wrestling and BJJ so can get away with doing it more
Also the kick they do like that,if they do mainly is high. They also vary. Even in MT I recognised one way to kick high as basicaly Olympic TKD high kicking. It has its place yet its low percentage. To the body and low is not TKD style. And there are reasons.
Front kicks its too hard to say what style ,no style has a major different way to do them. Of course there are d ifferent kinds and angles to use.
Side kicks are very low percent at the top level. They might work just like anything might.

Its not worth throwing so much away just to kick like TKD kicks,unless its adapted alot,then it becomes something else.
Thats why its not seen.
Its also ok for us here to do what we talk about yet we are not fighting against the people these are. I am not just fighting TKD people anymore so its not as easy to apply.Believe me Iv have tried.
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#426238 - 03/31/10 06:23 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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Sorry, but Mark Weir was a former TKD world champion (Chang Hon style) and he scored one of the fastest UFC knockouts against Eugene jackson (10 seconds). He also had a real ding-dong fight with Alex Reid in Extreme Brawl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxd-aT3QBo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Weir


Edited by trevek (03/31/10 06:32 PM)
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#426493 - 04/16/10 12:57 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
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Hi.
I dont see your point.
He has adapted his TKD and also looked into other areas like Clinch and groundwork to the point where you would not know he did TKD unless you found out he had.
The OP was wondering why its not represented that much.It might be but its not obviouse because its changed and adapted to MMA.Just like every thing is, be it wrestling MT,boxing.
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#428178 - 07/08/10 08:07 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
mmafight123 Offline
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Nice Post

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#428252 - 07/12/10 06:08 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: mmafight123]
hotrice Offline
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when you guys say that olympic tkd revolutioned kicking, in what way. is it the chambering or the footwork. can you guys give specific examples.

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#428256 - 07/12/10 09:28 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: hotrice]
ITFunity Offline
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Originally Posted By: hotrice
when you guys say that olympic tkd revolutioned kicking, in what way. is it the chambering or the footwork. can you guys give specific examples.
Both! You see prior to the Olympic sport rules that came from the Jido kwan, TKD & tae Soo Do players competed under karate stop match point rules. There was grabbing, sweeping, low kicks & all kinds of hand techniques allowed to both the face & body. However to be different, some Koreans devised completely new rules that allowed only full contact kicking to the chest protector & head, with knockouts allowed. However only a ounch with the forefist was allowed & it was strictly limited to the chest protector. So you have to hast fast kicks & quick stepping if you were to score points.
So these new set of rules made revolution or evolutiion necessary if one was to score points. Therefore chambers of kicks were altered, like the turning kick to allow quicker reach to the target. Likewise new kicks were devloped, like downward kicks. Quick stepping & counter-kicking became needed as the sport changed into a counter-kicking one, where you waited for an opponent to kick so you could take advantage of them in motion, to exploit an opening so you could score.
Some don't realize this & think WTF sparring is boring. While it may have little action, it is a strategic cat & mouse game. Once to understand that, it is not boring, but a good strategy to watch, for some

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#430610 - 10/22/10 06:06 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
TimmyJ Offline
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another major problem these martial arts (TWD, Karate) have the way their sparring is done. They are just not trained to go for 3 min rounds. Their whole mentality is ending the fight quickly. And in a real match you can't always win in a few seconds. If their opponent simply steps back they are left hanging because they are so committed to the attack.

Another issue they have is their punching game. Although they put a lot power into each punch they lack the ability to run a punching game. I have boxed in the past and am now doing WFT Taekwondo and their is such a massive difference in the punching game, they don't focus of rhythm and try to make every punch a knock-out with simply doesn't work in the ring and leaves you open. A boxer will try work to open the guard over time and set up of a big hit where at in TWD we are always going for that killer punch.

Also the guard, the TWD has a stupidly low guard. My instructor always gets mad at me because coming out of Muay Thai and boxing I'm so used to keeping my hands up around my head. The TWD punch leaves half the head exposed.

Kicks and punches are also left out in the air to long. If you watch any kind of ring based martial art (boxing, Muay Thai, MMA ect) they never leave their their punch out in the air very long. TWD does, which means their guard stays open to long.

Also they mainly kick with the foot and are used to blocking with the arm. If they were to block a Muay Thai low kick with their arm it WILL break. I have seen this happen and its not pretty.

But just some food for thought, Anderson Silva the current UFC middle weight champ is a Muay Thai fighter who also trained in TWD and you often see him replace the Muay Thai tep with a TWD side kick.
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#430620 - 10/23/10 12:13 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
They are just not trained to go for 3 min rounds.


Not saying your points are wrong, but they are very sweeping. Training varies greatly across schools and systems.
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#430625 - 10/24/10 01:15 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Kimo2007]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Well, in a real fight, you're supposed to knock your opponent out with one or two blows, and that's definitely not 3 minutes. In fact, I understand that most street fights don't last more than 30 seconds.

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#430642 - 10/25/10 12:34 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TimmyJ Offline
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I have never seen a knockout being dealt in a street fight in a few blows. and if these fighters could then why don't they do it in the ring?

just a note: Most street fights last less than 30 sec because after the first clash most people realise who is better and bolt.
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#430654 - 10/25/10 09:15 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
Dereck Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimmyJ
I have never seen a knockout being dealt in a street fight in a few blows. and if these fighters could then why don't they do it in the ring?


I have seen fights end in a few blows in the street. For one, these guys are NOT fighters. They don't train as fighters. They fight with adrenalin highs and most times liquid courage. They feel they need to prove something and usually their reasons are immature and self serving. In a ring the majority of them would have their a$$es handed to them.

Quote:
just a note: Most street fights last less than 30 sec because after the first clash most people realise who is better and bolt.


So untrue. Having been an idiot who has fought in the street and now being one who has broken up fights while policing, this is not the case. Fights last 30 seconds or less because the adrenalin rush ends and they are EXHAUSTED. You ask them they think they've fought for 10 minuted or more. And in a lot of cases the bouncers and/or the police are on hand to break things up. I don't recall many incidences where people bolt as usually they have buddies coming to their rescue to either pick their sorry a$$es up off the ground or continuing to fight thus picking up where their friends left off.
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#430658 - 10/25/10 11:04 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dereck
Originally Posted By: TimmyJ
I have never seen a knockout being dealt in a street fight in a few blows. and if these fighters could then why don't they do it in the ring?


I have seen fights end in a few blows in the street. For one, these guys are NOT fighters. They don't train as fighters. They fight with adrenalin highs and most times liquid courage. They feel they need to prove something and usually their reasons are immature and self serving. In a ring the majority of them would have their a$$es handed to them.

Quote:
just a note: Most street fights last less than 30 sec because after the first clash most people realise who is better and bolt.


So untrue. Having been an idiot who has fought in the street and now being one who has broken up fights while policing, this is not the case. Fights last 30 seconds or less because the adrenalin rush ends and they are EXHAUSTED. You ask them they think they've fought for 10 minuted or more. And in a lot of cases the bouncers and/or the police are on hand to break things up. I don't recall many incidences where people bolt as usually they have buddies coming to their rescue to either pick their sorry a$$es up off the ground or continuing to fight thus picking up where their friends left off.
good points on both sides

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#430663 - 10/25/10 01:25 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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To further answer the original question, it all comes down to fighting and what is required to fight. In MMA to win you need solid basics that cover the whole gambit and by developing those you become a better fighter. If you don't you become one or two dimensional and that is too predictable. With only TKD basics you are predictable and incomplete.

Unfortunately martial arts like TKD are not all about the basics needed to fight MMA. They have phenomenal kicks but to fight MMA you don't necessarily need phenomenal kicks. Many fighters have had TKD training and can successfully use these skills along side others skills to become good fighters; such as with my own Instructor. However these days strictly coming into wanting to fight MMA, it makes more sense to learn from an exact game plan and structure that already has a winning formula, and that is not TKD. To be effective as a TKD MMA fighter you need so many other skills to fill the holes. It makes more sense to train MMA that covers the whole gambit. Sure your kicks may not be as good but that is always something later you can work to become greater at once you have established yourself as a good fighter.
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#430668 - 10/25/10 05:15 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Dereck]
TimmyJ Offline
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Thats very true. But it also important to note that MMA is not complete in itself. If you just start learning MMA you have no solid grounding and just a basic knowledge in each aspect of the fight. I personally believe it is best to start with one martial art and then most into MMA once you are confident in your first martial art. For example having done boxing and Muay Thai and now learning TWD my stand up game is going to be better than someone who has just done MMA. However I will need to learn how to defend against takedowns and submissions once I go into the cage. So MMA is more the filler for the parts you don't know.

I think its best to see it was a brick wall. If the bricks are the more traditional martial arts and MMA is the mortar. You can build your wall with just bricks but without the mortar its not going to be very strong.

Thats how I see it atleast.

Also what I meant was bolt was it gets broken up or stopped somehow.
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#430678 - 10/26/10 12:17 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
Dereck Offline
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I used to believe the same thing Timmy but no longer do I. We are looking at this the wrong way. Traditional MA has been around for a long time and will be for years to come HOWEVER we are basing our learning on this premise. Let's take TKD for instance. They have forms, one-step sparring, sparring, self defense, board breaking, etc. If we go by the old thinking we should learn all of these and then add other stuff. I say NO, no longer do I believe that. Cut out all of the stuff that is not necessary and just do the meat of it. When you cut out all of the unnecessary you have room to learn other things ... and now you have MMA.

I learned TKD and BJJ as one art and it blended perfectly. We added stuff in such as throws, takedowns, stuff taking downs, knees, elbows, clinch, etc. To think if we would have stripped all of that other stuff and based it solely on what was needed strictly for fighting then it wouldn't be TKD but MMA, and that is what is happening now.

All MMA schools are teaching bits and pieces of other arts blended seamlessly together into one art. I think this is the best way to do it. You gain your solid based from this and then the areas you need to improve you work on those.

I am reminded of something my Instructor said. He said he could teach us good basics and in most cases basics will win the fight for you however to become BETTER you needed to train each skill. He said if you wanted to get better at punching then you needed to take boxing. If you wanted to get better at throws you needed to take Judo. If you wanted to get better at submissions then you needed to take BJJ. If you wanted to get better takedowns then take wrestling. Basically find the areas you need to work on them and then go and fine tune them.

If I was going to fight I would not take one art and train years at it and then fill the holes later. I would take an art such as MMA that has the game winning formula and then see where I lacked in skill and then seek out other MA to fine tune those skills. Forms are not needed for fighting. Board breaking, one-steps, all of that stuff is not needed for fighting. Fighting is needed for fighting and you will succeed better by taking MMA.

My Instructor was right, excellent base he gave us that when going to other schools served me well. When I did a short stint in Judo I was a head of the game. When I joined my last school of BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA I was a head of the game. But each of those schools could make me better and if I had perhaps cut away the "fat" from my original training and took that time to put into these other skills, I would be farther a head in the game; no doubt about it.

I'm in no way putting down Traditional MA however they have us brain washed to think we need all of it to become anything good. TMA have their place and I think are an excellent means for many people BUT not for somebody wanting to learn to fight. I would rather spend my time learning 10 things geared towards direct fighting then 10 things with only a couple of things geared towards fighting.

It is my opinion that if you took two people of equal learning skill, size, age, weight, etc. One took 5 years of TMA and one took 5 years of MMA. After the 5 years the MMA person would be a better fighter by leaps and bounds AND would be better able to handle them self in a life threatening situation. That by cutting the "fat" and learning the fundamentals of fighting they will be a better rounded martial artist. Because MMA is just another form of martial arts, nothing more then a different focus.
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#430690 - 10/26/10 02:54 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Dereck]
TimmyJ Offline
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Its an interesting argument, what makes a better base to grow from? MMA or traditional Martial Arts.

Personally I think its half way. Martial Arts like Karate TWD Kung Fu are not as good as starting with MMA. However I feel that ring Martial Arts like Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, western wrestling are a good place to start because they just focus on the ring matches. For example I started with Muay Thai and when I go train at MMA with my friends I have a far better stand up game and cardio than them. But their ground game is better so I'm going to have to take up BJJ before I jump in the cage.

I think the issue is MMA doesn't really exist as a Martial Art. It is just a blend of what the instructor has found useful in their past matches.
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#430693 - 10/26/10 03:10 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
MastaFighta Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimmyJ
I think the issue is MMA doesn't really exist as a Martial Art. It is just a blend of what the instructor has found useful in their past matches.

This.

MMA is a ruleset (like sanshou and vale tudo, for example), not a martial art.

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#430700 - 10/27/10 10:13 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: MastaFighta]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Originally Posted By: MastaFighta
Originally Posted By: TimmyJ
I think the issue is MMA doesn't really exist as a Martial Art. It is just a blend of what the instructor has found useful in their past matches.

This.

MMA is a ruleset (like sanshou and vale tudo, for example), not a martial art.


No, the UFC (or WEC) is the rule set. I think MMA is pretty self explanatory, it is a practioner blending mutiple arts together.

MIXED MARTIAL ARTS

VDJ

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#430714 - 10/28/10 09:19 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
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Exactly, thanks VDJ.

The school I trained at had a MMA fight team that was based on TKD, BJJ blended with skills from other martial arts such as Muay Thai and boxing. The last school I was at also had a MMA fight team and they based theirs on Muay Thai and BJJ. Each were taught separate for an hour and then MMA trained as a whole for an hour; 3 hours total.

What are TMAs? They are skills that somebody decided to train in a certain manner and then they called it a name; names we are familiar with and have been around for a long long time. MMA is newer but it is the same thing, somebody decided to train particular skills. It doesn't matter what those skills are or what TMA they were taken from, it is just a matter of taking what is felt best to make a fighter better. Whereas TMAs are not predominately focused towards fighters, MMA more so is but even now schools of MMA are around that are not geared for fighting but to train a person self defense and discipline; just like TMAs. Therefore MMA is a form of martial arts.
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#430718 - 10/28/10 02:59 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Dereck]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Exactly, thanks VDJ.

The school I trained at had a MMA fight team that was based on TKD, BJJ blended with skills from other martial arts such as Muay Thai and boxing. The last school I was at also had a MMA fight team and they based theirs on Muay Thai and BJJ. Each were taught separate for an hour and then MMA trained as a whole for an hour; 3 hours total.

What are TMAs? They are skills that somebody decided to train in a certain manner and then they called it a name; names we are familiar with and have been around for a long long time. MMA is newer but it is the same thing, somebody decided to train particular skills. It doesn't matter what those skills are or what TMA they were taken from, it is just a matter of taking what is felt best to make a fighter better. Whereas TMAs are not predominately focused towards fighters, MMA more so is but even now schools of MMA are around that are not geared for fighting but to train a person self defense and discipline; just like TMAs. Therefore MMA is a form of martial arts.


Hence Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do

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