FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 33 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
futsaowingchun 1
Zombie Zero 1
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35591 Topics
432526 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#423653 - 11/21/09 12:17 PM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: kakushiite]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: kakushiite
Mr. Neeter,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will regularly be posting my spear art on my blog for the next several years. I will cover 40 Okinawan kata in full.

What I seek from readers of this forum and others is requests of spear application for the movements of common Okinawan kata. I would be grateful if any reader would post a link of youtube clip of a kata, with a start/stop time. I think there is a pretty good chance that I can provide a useful instructional segment regarding those movements.

What I have chosen to post so far is not really that instructional. It is more of a demonstration of ways to practice Okinawan kata that would improve a soldier's capability on the battlefield and off. In so many cases, propelling the spear is little different than propelling an empty hand block or strike.

It is my belief that each kata was likely a full-blown battlefield art. There was probably a lot of theory and application behind all the movements of a spear. There are lots of potential variations within the sequences of movements.

It will take several years to go through these movements in detail. I have yet to begin voice-overs on the videos. I am trying to just get some basic content up. I will do that shortly.

Budoka Mike Eschenbrenner



Im going to take a chance and call you Mike,

in relation to your spear art Mike, I have to say at this time my interest is minimul, I don't 'get' the theory you have and I disagree technically, and based on the actual lineages passed down from the 18th/19th cen I feel there is very, very little evidence to support your theory - however that doesn't de-value it martially, I just don't think it is historically accurate at all.

So back to my request here - 'seeing some of your empty hands application work and also to understand if this was passed on to you via a Sensei of a certain Ryu or something developed yourself from your experience'

I would be keen to understand or see these things a little better.

By the way, good luck with your research/development of the spear art, it is an extremley valuable way to train IMO, just not for me!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#423677 - 11/22/09 11:27 PM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: shoshinkan]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Jim,

I have a new post at my blog that describes the historical perspective on which I base my analysis. I lay out a simple hypothesis that Okinawans learned spear arts from the Chinese.

I understand that many might find unsettling, my views on the battlefield origins of today's empty hand kata. In response, I would ask if there any posters who would argue that at the time of the 1609 weapons ban, that there were no Okinawans that knew Chinese spear arts? And if so, I would be interesed in the reasoning.

If one accepts this hypothesis (that Okinawans knew Chinese spear arts in 1500 and 1609), then I would also be interested in what historical record exists to support the claim that the Okinawans discarded their spear arts.

I draw a conclusion that the Okinawans did not throw away their spear arts once the weapons bans were imposed. I argue that the historial record shows that the weapons bans were watershed events in Okinawan history. But the historical record stands fairly mute on the degree that the Okinawans may have chosen to keep their old arts and not discard them for new empty-hand designed from the ground up for empty hand fighting.


-Mike Eschenbrenner

Top
#424156 - 12/27/09 03:02 PM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: kakushiite]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
Kakushidi wrote 'No military leader would ever choose Okinawan implements for use in warfare, when long bladed weapons are what are needed to be successful'.

Reality is that many of these implements were not household implements as you state, that is a bit of a myth created around another myth of the weapons ban and the emergence of agricultural and household implements. The Rokushakubo is seen in Chinese as well as Japanese military traditions, in fact some techniques in some traditions are or may be the same as spear.

As to the issue of Okinawan Karate and martial arts generally being battlefield arts, this is extremely unlikely, it is a civilian fighting tradition, perhaps with soem extention to bodyguarding nobles, so again still civilian tradition.

The argument that Kata movements were tested on the battlefield I am afraid is to my mind at least absurd. As cxt correctly states the Okinawan traditions for self protection were based on Chinese systems of self protection. There appears little evidence to support what it is that you arguing, or at least you have not presented any.

Kakushidi wrote 'It is my belief that each kata was likely a full-blown battlefield art'.
I doubt that was the case, Sanchin most certainly was not and I have my doubts about Naihanchi as well. Some of the Kata can be traced to tehir Chinese origins and there is no suggestion of what you are proposing here. What is more intringuing is that you seem on your website to link spear to a Pinan Kata, Pinan's were created by Itosu for the schools system in Okinawa.

I do not doubt that there were spears on Okinawa and that these were used in a martial sense at some point, but have you looked at dance drama's of Okinawa?

There is a picture in Mark Bishop's (2009) Okinawan weaponry: Hidden Methods, Ancinet Myths of Kobudo and Te. Way Publications on page 91 of a picture from the 1900's showing some children preparing to do a dance with Yari or spear.

Have you looked to Matayoshi Kobudo were they use Tinbe and Rochin?

Have you considered traditions in Okinawa that still use the spear, the Motobu ryu Udun Ti and the Bugeikan?

Regards

Chris Norman LL.B (Hons) MA (SOAS, London)

Top
#424161 - 12/27/09 09:36 PM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: reboot]
dongdwaeji Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/09
Posts: 14
Quote:
Another answer might be "effective". One might argue that Okinawan empty hand kata contain some movements that provide for effective use of a spear-like weapon.

And yet another answer might be "very effective". One might argue that Okinawan empty hand kata contain many movements that provide for effective use of a spear-like weapon.


I think some of the spear hand striking attacks and strikes using the blade of the hand could certainly be adapted if one was carrying a spear or a sword.

Top
#424166 - 12/28/09 08:31 AM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: dongdwaeji]
Gesar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 77
Loc: England, UK
dongdwaeji wrote that: 'I think some of the spear hand striking attacks and strikes using the blade of the hand could certainly be adapted if one was carrying a spear or a sword'.

Indeed in Ryukyu Oke Hiden Bujutsu what is called Kasshin-di which is like Nukite but where the thumb is in line with the second finger can and is adapted to the holding of a spear. Given that Ryukyu Oke Hiden Bujutsu comes in a large part from Motobu Ryu Udun Te who use both sword and spear, but the latter do not use kata in the sense seen in Okinawan Karate generally.

As for sword, it has to be borne in mind that the Okinawan sword was shorter than the Japanese variation, and many believe that the Okinawan swords were used in pairs. However there is a very big difference between the way that shuto or sword hand works in Karate Kata and how a sword is used. So the adaption would be both an adaptation and a modification from any originally Karate Kata, unless of course someone could provide an example of an exception to this.

Regards

Chris Norman


Edited by Gesar (12/28/09 08:31 AM)

Top
#424167 - 12/28/09 08:50 AM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: kakushiite]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: kakushiite
Jim,

I have a new post at my blog that describes the historical perspective on which I base my analysis. I lay out a simple hypothesis that Okinawans learned spear arts from the Chinese.

I understand that many might find unsettling, my views on the battlefield origins of today's empty hand kata. In response, I would ask if there any posters who would argue that at the time of the 1609 weapons ban, that there were no Okinawans that knew Chinese spear arts? And if so, I would be interesed in the reasoning.

If one accepts this hypothesis (that Okinawans knew Chinese spear arts in 1500 and 1609), then I would also be interested in what historical record exists to support the claim that the Okinawans discarded their spear arts.

I draw a conclusion that the Okinawans did not throw away their spear arts once the weapons bans were imposed. I argue that the historial record shows that the weapons bans were watershed events in Okinawan history. But the historical record stands fairly mute on the degree that the Okinawans may have chosen to keep their old arts and not discard them for new empty-hand designed from the ground up for empty hand fighting.


-Mike Eschenbrenner




Hi Mike, seasons greetings to you.

first off, well done for the work your doing and presenting to the world, great effort I have looked around your blog and various videos.

To awnser some specifics, just my views of course -

1. I have no doubt as well that certain Okinawans learned spear arts from China, for several hundred years China was considered the 'culture' to learn in old Ryu Kyu, it was held in high esteem and 'martially' much was learnt/taken from China.

However for the most part the classical kata cannot/are not found in China and the majority of Chinese Arts look significantly different form the Okinawan ones, my view is that this is because the classical kata are indeed Okinawan creations based on various learning sources of Chinese Kung Fu.

2. Because you make the point that it is highly unlikeley that no Okinawans knew spear arts (I agree with you of course) doesn't mean that many did (personally I see the spear as a light infrantry weapon and in use within the Shuri Guard mostly (there most definatly IS a link between spear and Bo), hence it's practical absence in the vast ammount of Okinawan Kobudo avaliable, same with sword), and they kept the secret technique in the classical kata (despite the interesting technical connections you make), seems highly unlikely - Motobu Undon Ti does contain actual spear methods, but no classical kata!

Mike, I do like what you are doing but I feel that you may be jumping to conclusions in your presentations, Im not sure what classical Okinawan Karate background you have, or indeed what spear art background - understanding this would help me get where your coming from.

But I salute your efforts and hope you continue to research this interesting area, but the main points you raise, I simply disgree with and I feel that Okinawan Karate & Kobudo lineage's, actual historical references, strategic, technical and practical methods within kata and indeed the surviving Okinawan Masters support my view on this one.


Edited by shoshinkan (12/28/09 02:12 PM)
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#424169 - 12/28/09 07:05 PM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I wonder if all historical analysis about Okinawa should be set aside until a translation of the Okinawan Karate Encyclopedia is available. In most historical issues I think if the Okinawan's haven't addressed it, there is no chance of finding a historical answer which then only leaves logic and not proof.

It is a certainty that there is no serious Chinese arts that Karate resembles enough to make a direct parallel. If that existed I rather suspect the Chinese would really enjoy showing the true history.

Off hand I think the strongest logic is that various Chinese sources 'inspired' the Okinawan creators, both from the Okinawan Chinese villages and mainland forays over time.

Another logical answer actually given by the Chinese years ago in the now defunct O'Neil's karate magazine from England proposed the answer is the Chinese instructors were not really aligned with the more serious National arts, and those systems died with the instructors. They then hastened to add that doesn't mean they were bad, just didn't last.

Frankly it may also be:
1. Nobody trained long enough to really get the source system (Some Chinese systems require several decades of study). or
2. The Okinawans really weren't very good students and simply forgot things and changed the results in turn.

I see this as a 'proof' that logic gives us very little.

If you can use logic to make your own practice more poweful, good, but one's personal acceptance rarely sways others who use a different logic chain.

I focus on what I do and how to make it better for my students, seems enough.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#424172 - 12/29/09 05:49 AM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Victor,

whilst I will, of course be getting the English translation when it happens of the recent 'Okinawan Karate Encyclopedia', and I remain really hopeful it is complete and factual I think we need to realise it simply may not be.............(but im told it is a rather excellent book overall).

My hope is that it gives me more accurate information to digest.

The issue for Mike is that he is making some fairly bold claims (and interesting ones) but has little evidence (IMO) to support his theories, which are fairly radical - he decided to come on line (which I applaud) and tell us all about it so questions should and will be asked.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#424257 - 01/04/10 08:11 AM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: kakushiite]
Ninja Master Offline
In the shadows awaiting...
Stranger

Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: kakushiite
The term martial comes from Mars, the Roman god of war.

Dictionary.com defines martial as “of, suitable for, or associated with war or armed forces”

Oxford’s English dictionary defines martial as “of or appropriate to warfare.”

My study of karate centers on my attempts to better understand to what degree karate kata are true martial arts. To what degree are kata suitable, associated or appropriate to warfare?
"Martial" is only half of what you're supposed to be learning; there is also some "Arts" involved.

If your primary concern is with the "Martial" aspect, buy a gun, a can of pepper spray and a Rottweil Metzgerhund. If you feel you've something else to express aside this basic "Martial", however, keep practicing your kata and pay attention to what you're doing. If your feelings become overwhelming, try another style that does not include forms.


Edited by Ninja Master (01/04/10 08:13 AM)

Top
#424319 - 01/08/10 04:46 PM Re: Are karate kata true martial arts [Re: Ninja Master]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Ninja Master wrote:
Quote:
"Martial" is only half of what you're supposed to be learning; there is also some "Arts" involved.

If your primary concern is with the "Martial" aspect, buy a gun, a can of pepper spray and a Rottweil Metzgerhund. If you feel you've something else to express aside this basic "Martial", however, keep practicing your kata and pay attention to what you're doing. If your feelings become overwhelming, try another style that does not include forms.


The issue of arts, in my mind, is a given. The Chinese passed on kata-based arts to the Okinawans. The question I have asked here is to what extent the "Bu" of Budo represented true martial or military arts. It is believed today that these Chinese forms were geared solely, or at least primarily for non-military empty hand purposes. My study leads me to believe otherwise. I have posted here on this topic since this forum concerns kata and the application of kata.

I believe the historical record is such that we should at least consider the possibility that some of the Chinese kata passed on to Okinawans were designed, at least in part for military purposes. Prior to the advent of firearms, military fighting was conducted primarily with the spear.

Some time ago, I began looking at how empty hand kata might work in propelling different kinds of weapons. It began as a way to enhance empty hand kata, but along the way I have found that many Okinawan kata work remarkably well in propelling a spear in effective fighting combinations. I believe that others, over time, once they try some of these concepts, may come to see kata in a different light.

Six months ago I began a videoblog (www.cayugakarate.com/blog) of the application of Okinawan empty hand kata for use with a spear. To date I have published over 30 hours of video (some instruction, but mostly training) in an effort to document these concepts. I have demonstrated 20 kata on my blog, and over the next several years I plan to extend this to 40 kata total.

I, like many, find great value in the repetitive practice of kata. I have shifted my practice from empty hand, to the use of the spear. Now I find it even more rewarding. I used to have serious doubts about the effectiveness of many kata combinations for empty hand fighting. Now I have far greater confidence in the utility of the kata passed down by the Chinese. My study has led me to appreciate the great spear fighting combinations within, and this has motivated me to train even more intensively in these kata. For example, just in the past 3 weeks, I began training in a form that I had little experience in, and in that time, I have documented over 600 repetitions, which I consider a good start towards my progress in that form.

Based on my study, it is my belief that one does not have to abandon karate kata to train in a true martial or military art. Neither does one have to abandon forms to practice ancient military arts. One just has to look at kata a bit differently, and one can practice the old Chinese forms, and true military arts at the same time.

-Mike Eschenbrenner
Cayuga Karate

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga