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#423251 - 10/30/09 07:54 AM Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

Quote:
Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade

By James Slack
Last updated at 8:42 AM on 27th October 2009

* Comments (24)
* Add to My Stories

gun crime

Gun crime has increased five-fold in some parts of the UK

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

'We need to redouble our efforts to deal with the challenge.'

He added: 'These figures are all the more alarming given that it is only a week since the Metropolitan Police said it was increasing regular armed patrols in some areas of the capital'.


The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official Parliamentary answers, do not include air weapons.

But they provide the first regional breakdown of the increasing use of firearms.

Lancashire suffered the single largest rise in gun crime, with recorded offences increasing from 50 in 1998/99 to 349 in 2007/08, an increase of 598 per cent.


Armed: Officers engaged in routine policing are carrying sub-machine guns for the first time

Only four police forces - Cleveland-Humberside, Cambridgeshire and Sussex - recorded falls in gun crime.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .

The figures follow a warning by Mr Grayling that U.S.-style gang culture has reached some parts of the UK.

In August, he made a controversial speech warning that a collapse of 'civilised life' had allowed a brutal drug and gun crime culture - like that of the U.S. TV show The Wire - to flourish in Britain.

The hit TV series tracks the nightmare of gangs and organised crime in inner city West Baltimore and the futile efforts of police to deal with them.

The Met's decision to employ armed officers on the streets has attracted criticism.

But the force, which has already begun the scheme, insists that the unprecedented tactic is a proportionate and temporary response to prevent armed gangs from controlling estates.
Trident

Trident poster campaign warning of dangers of young women and girls storing and transporting guns for others

Last month, police warned that teenage girls were now being dragged into the gun culture by hiding weapons for their boyfriends.

Police are targeting girls between 15 and 19 with an advertising blitz warning them that they can expect a five-year prison sentence if they are caught.

The number of women charged with firearms offences in London has increased six-fold in the past year - 12 have been charged since January.

Seven of them were teenagers, including a 16-year-old arrested after a 9mm Browning self-loading pistol was found in her bedroom.



Read more here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...l#ixzz0VAimpu9E
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#431885 - 04/03/11 02:41 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: BrianS]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Not sure how this article lends support to the 2nd Amendment; in fact, it sort of does the opposite. Thanks to a regime of strict gun control, the UK is only now starting to see the bare beginnings of a vicious gun culture that has ravaged US cities for decades. Sounds like they need more gun control, not less.

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#431888 - 04/03/11 07:52 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
If criminals can carry weapons (they are criminals, you know), how do honest law-abiding people defend themselves?

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#431905 - 04/04/11 01:01 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Gun laws are followed my law-biding citizens. Criminals never follow gun laws. (That's why they are called criminals) So why have more gun laws?

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#431914 - 04/04/11 10:15 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: 47MartialMan]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Hi fileboy
This forum topic is about Gun crime in the UK.
They do not have a 2nd Amendment like they do in Chicago

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#431916 - 04/04/11 03:24 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
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Loc: Chicago, IL
The idea criminals have some special, privileged access to firearms is a myth.

Trace the history of any gun used by any criminal to commit any crime. Invariably, you'll find that someone, at some point, bought that gun legally. That's how it entered circulation in the first place--someone LEGALLY bought it. After that, it may have been stolen, sold, traded, whatever. But most guns only end up in the hands of criminals because law-abiding citizens bought them first.

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#431920 - 04/04/11 03:56 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
most guns only end up in the hands of criminals because law-abiding citizens bought them first.

And did not learn how to use/guard them.

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#431924 - 04/04/11 10:36 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Originally Posted By: iaibear
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
most guns only end up in the hands of criminals because law-abiding citizens bought them first.

And did not learn how to use/guard them.


In some cases, sure. In others, guns are legally purchased, then used illegally.

It is not like there is some sharp line of demarcation between "criminals" and "law abiding citizens." That's another myth. In the real world, people usually cannot be categorized so neatly.

In the US, about half of all murders are related to domestic violence--i.e. they occur between family members, or people sharing the same household. Most of those murderers are not career criminals.

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#431950 - 04/05/11 11:45 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Originally Posted By: iaibear
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
most guns only end up in the hands of criminals because law-abiding citizens bought them first.

And did not learn how to use/guard them.


In some cases, sure. In others, guns are legally purchased, then used illegally.

It is not like there is some sharp line of demarcation between "criminals" and "law abiding citizens." That's another myth. In the real world, people usually cannot be categorized so neatly.

In the US, about half of all murders are related to domestic violence--i.e. they occur between family members, or people sharing the same household. Most of those murderers are not career criminals.


This is not statiscally accurate

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#431951 - 04/05/11 11:48 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
The idea criminals have some special, privileged access to firearms is a myth.

Trace the history of any gun used by any criminal to commit any crime. Invariably, you'll find that someone, at some point, bought that gun legally. That's how it entered circulation in the first place--someone LEGALLY bought it. After that, it may have been stolen, sold, traded, whatever. But most guns only end up in the hands of criminals because law-abiding citizens bought them first.



Law abiding citizens may have bought them, but like anything, it becomes the basis of illegal activity.

It isn't the gun or the law-biding citizen who should suffer laws

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#431954 - 04/06/11 01:19 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:
In the US, about half of all murders are related to domestic violence--i.e. they occur between family members, or people sharing the same household. Most of those murderers are not career criminals.


Nope-

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_10.html

Duane

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (04/06/11 01:57 PM)

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#431955 - 04/06/11 02:10 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Duane -

Can you be a bit more specific with the "nope"? Unless I'm reading the chart wrong, it does seem to show that about half of the murders are commited by family, friends, boyfriend/girlfriend, etc, compared to strangers. Fileboy may not be strictly legally accurate with the "domestic violence", but it does seem he was in the right area by your chart.

I may not be reading it correctly, though - a bit confusing.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#431959 - 04/06/11 07:53 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Duane, your chart completely supports what I am saying.

In fact, if I just tally up the total for family members--i.e. even if I exclude boyfriends, girlfriends, etc--I get 1,855. That's compared to just 1,676 for strangers.

Or am I missing something?

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#431984 - 04/08/11 05:16 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Look at the first line for totals-
Total number of murders 13,636

Committed by unknown 5,986
committed by aquaintance 2,941
total 8,927= 65% of 13,636
At least the way I read it.
Duane

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#431985 - 04/08/11 05:31 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmm. I disregarded the "unknown" total, figuring it meant they didn't know who did it, period - maybe an aquaintance, maybe not. I did not assume that "unknown" immediately meant stranger.

Throw out that number and it's much closer to what fileboy said.

EDIT - I counted everything other than 'strangers' towards fileboy's assertion, but I guess one could make a case that 'aquaintances' could count either way.


Edited by MattJ (04/08/11 05:36 PM)
_________________________
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#431986 - 04/08/11 08:30 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I agree the large number of "unknowns" muddies the picture a bit. But I think it stands to reason that for most part, people you know have more reason to kill you, just as they have more reason to love you. The essential point is that a lot of people killed by guns are not the victims of career criminals. Or, even if they are, they are not the victims of random crimes.

Just for the record, I am on the fence when it comes to gun control. But I just think many of the arguments put forward by 2nd Amendment advocates are weak ones. I think they'd do better arguing against gun control by focusing on the civil liberties aspect. It is perfectly reasonable to punish people for committing crimes with guns. It might be less reasonable to criminalize them simply for owning them.

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#431988 - 04/08/11 10:05 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< It is perfectly reasonable to punish people for committing crimes with guns. It might be less reasonable to criminalize them simply for owning them. >>

Absolutely

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#431990 - 04/09/11 06:27 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
I would define a Domestic situation between blood relatives, spouses,people in a significant relationship and people who live together.
I would define an aquaintance as someone you know.
Subtract the unknowns from the total you get 7650, 1855 is 41%.

Duane

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#431993 - 04/09/11 07:49 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Question: are these all gun crimes?

If a gun is not present but the situation still involves family violence, there are all manner of alternate choices. Call them weapons of opportunity. Kitchen knives and rolling pins, for instance. Should they be illegal?
-----------
And please forgive the silly smily face. I did not choose it and I cannot change it without help. The alternatives offered in the upper right hand corner are still pretty corny.


Edited by iaibear (04/09/11 07:54 AM)

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#431996 - 04/09/11 10:06 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Strict gun control sure worked well for Washington DC and according to what I've read Chicago right? Oh wait no, gun criem rates actually increased over that of some palces with very lax gun control laws.
Here's something you guys might fidn interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLuTjguJA
You then have to take into consideration countries like Switzerland where everyone has a gun and ammo and there is almost no gun crime rate at all.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431997 - 04/09/11 11:52 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Your arguments against gun control are much better than the ones I usually hear.

Chicago and Washington D.C have the strictest anti-gun ordinances in the country (or had; Chicago's gun ban was recently ruled unconstitutional). Yet, this seems to have had little impact one way or the other on homicide rates.

In my view, the reason is simple. Both Chicago and DC are surrounded by suburbs--as well as entire states--whose gun control laws are very lax. Anyone in Chicago who wants to buy a gun can simply drive out to the suburbs and get one; a resident in DC can just shoot over to Virginia or Maryland.

The UK has a unitary system of government. That makes it relatively easy to pass gun bans on a nationwide level. The US has a federal system, so gun laws are an uneven patchwork of federal standards, state laws, and municipal ordinances. The kind of gun control the anti-gun crowd would like to see may well be impossible to implement in the US.

The point about Switzerland is a good one. Canada also has a per capita rate of gun ownership that mirrors the US one, yet Canadians are much less apt to shoot each other than people in the USA. Clearly, there is more involved than simply owning a gun.

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#431998 - 04/09/11 12:26 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
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Thanks, I wrote an 8 or 9 page paper on it not too long ago. Lot's of research went into the subject.
The other thing about the UK is that it's much, much, much smaller. That has an impact on the ease with which you can enforce gun bans.
As for those areas being surrounded by places with lax gun laws yes that's a valid point and it does appear to be a good possibility as to why those bans have had little effect. And it probably is part of it, however, keep in mind, Virginia Beach has a lower gun crime rate despite much more lax gun laws.
Your last statement hits it on the head I think although I'm not sure they have as many guns as us. My problem with the gun control crowd is I think they sometimes forget about looking into other root causes besides just how many guns there are in people's hands (I'm a gun owner and am totally agaisnt any bans on guns however I am in favor of soem regulation and gun control).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431999 - 04/09/11 01:01 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
Good points from both of you. Gun control is a very complex and difficult topic, and I have yet to make an opinion on it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#432001 - 04/09/11 03:45 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: MattJ]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
You folks keep talking about "murder" and "homicide". Are you sure what percentage of those killings were committed with a gun?

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#432002 - 04/09/11 04:23 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Loc: Chicago, IL
I know that in the US, guns are used in a huge percentage of homicides. It varies a bit from year to year, but the numbers are always high. Incidentally, guns are used in a lot of suicides, too.

I don't really have a problem with people who choose to keep guns in their homes or at their place of business. What really bothers me is the recent push for right-to-carry laws. Letting people walk around with concealed firearms just seems like a terrible idea to me.

Sure, once in a while they might thwart a robbery attempt. But let's face it, people who feel they need to have a gun on them at all times are often of, shall we say, a certain mindset.

I've met a quite a few of them. They tend to be angry, aggressive, even paranoid. They are the kind of people who carry guns in their cars as a defense against carjackers, but end up killing people in disputes over parking spaces. There's an awful lot of trivial spats that turn into homicides simply because someone chose to carry a concealed firearm.

Last summer in Chicago, two men were shot, one fatally, at a funeral. Turns out the shooter had opened fire because he felt the two men were "disrespecting" him.

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#432003 - 04/09/11 05:35 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
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Actually gun related violence including homicides has dropped over the past 20 years, not by a huge margin but enough to make a noticeable difference. Accidental deaths from guns has dropped too. Suicides I'm not sure about.

And honestly I resent that comment about people who practice right-to-carry, in a few months I plan to be one of those and I'm not paranoid or overly aggressive, I haven't been in a fight since 2007. I get along with people. that being said, crap happens, there are people out there who like killing innocent people whether you want to believe it or not and I want to have a means of handling such a situation if it arises. I believe in hoping for the best but preparing for the worst, it's not paranoia it just goes with my training as a soldier and what I see. I have probably a dozen or so friends with CCP's (mostly my Army buddies and some cops one civilian) and none of them are crazy paranoid nuts or even loudmouths. They are some of the most decent and reliable people I know. Far, far more gun-related criems are committed by people who don't have a license to carry.
You state it doesn't make sense to allow for concealed carry and that and started telling about criems related to that but then didn't differentiate between people who do it legally (and have to go through training and a background check typically) and those who just do it because they think they can get away with it illegally.
With off-duty and retired cops it's especially necessary, I shouldn't have to explain why either. It's udnerstandable among soldiers as well. With average people, as long as they are checked out thoroughly and given some classes I see no issue with it. In fact, I've never even heard of someone with a CCP drawing and firing for no good reason.

I'm sorry but as long as criminals have ways to carry guns hidden then I have the right. It also depends where you live. I know some places I sometimes have reason to go to where it makes a whole lot of sense. And criems aren't thwarted occassionaly, it's somewhere around 250,000 tiems a year if I remember right.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432008 - 04/10/11 01:08 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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I've no doubt you and your friends who chose to carry guns are decent, sane people who pose no threat. I wasn't making a blanket condemnation.

The rhetoric of right-to-carry proponents tends to sharply divide people into two categories: "criminals" and "law-abiding citizens." That division is false. Many, many murders are committed by people who are not career criminals.

The rhetoric of right-to-carry proponents also implies criminals have some special, privileged access to guns that law-abiding people do not. That is also false. As I said earlier, the only reason most criminals are able to obtain guns is because those guns were earlier purchased, legally, by law-abiding citizens. Guns enter circulation as a result of legal purchases, and are subsequently stolen, resold, lent out, traded, etc.

Requiring training and thorough background checks for prospective gun buyers is a fine idea. Too often, however, the gun lobby resists any and all efforts to control the distribution of firearms. The NRA has even resisted requiring waiting periods for gun purchases. As a stand up comedian once noted, anyone who says they need a gun RIGHT NOW probably needs a waiting period.

Gun proponents often view all gun laws as steps on a slippery slope. They see even the most modest attempts at gun control as inevitably opening the door to a total bans and even forcible confiscations. That is nonsense.

I cannot imagine how anyone could calculate 250,000 crimes being averted each year as a result of gun ownership. I would be very suspicious of the methodology used to generate that estimate.

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#432009 - 04/10/11 01:52 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Loc: Salem, OR
"Sure, once in a while they might thwart a robbery attempt. But let's face it, people who feel they need to have a gun on them at all times are often of, shall we say, a certain mindset.

I've met a quite a few of them. They tend to be angry, aggressive, even paranoid." you may not have meant it that way but it reads like a very general blanket statement. Gotta watch those.

You do make good points, I'm not on board with how aggressively some people fight against any gun control at all. I do think we should be careful with how far it's taken, complete bans are going to happen in gradual steps, and people need to watch that, however going too far in the other direction is not the best idea either. I respectfully disagree that it's a mistake to make soem distinction between right to carry permit hodlers and criminals who just have them but of coruse we do have to pay attention to the misuse on both sides. I'll see if I can scrounge up my sources for that figure again.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432011 - 04/10/11 02:52 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
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Loc: Salem, OR
Apparently my numbers were off: "Firearms are used to commit as many as 650,000 crimes each year. But firearms are also used to prevent crimes as many as one million times each year"
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st176
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432015 - 04/10/11 07:23 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The guns were purchased legally and then stolen. The same can be said about cars, stereos, computers, prescription drugs-it's what criminal do. If your property is stolen is it your fault? If granny is walking back from the drugstore and gets mugged for her oxicontin is granny the source of the problem?
How should we deal with granny? Arrest her for not protecting her scripts? Require granny to hire a bodyguard when she goes to pick up her meds or face prosecution for negligent possession of a controlled substance? Or should we eliminate the production/use of prescription drugs because they can aquired illegally and used unlawfully?
Why do they steal these things? Because they choose to or cannot purchase them legally-which is why they are criminals.
You draw a distinction between criminals and career criminals. How do you define a "career criminal" vs a criminal?
Committing a murder makes you a criminal whether it's your "career" or not-hopefully not.People who do not commit crimes are by definition not criminals. Those who break the law-regardless of the number times-are criminals.
Duane

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#432016 - 04/10/11 07:38 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:
"Sure, once in a while they might thwart a robbery attempt. But let's face it, people who feel they need to have a gun on them at all times are often of, shall we say, a certain mindset.

I've met a quite a few of them. They tend to be angry, aggressive, even paranoid.".


The same can be said and has been said of those crazy paranoid martial "artists" who go stalking around just looking to bust someones head open-looking to satisfy some deep seated paranoia caused by feelings of inadequacy. Does anyone really need to know how to beat people up in this age? Isn't that why we have the police and 911 (or whatever number you use 999, 611)? Anyone who participates in such a barbaric activity must have some serious anti-social tendencies.

Duane

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#432020 - 04/10/11 02:13 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
fileboy2002 Offline
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You fired off a lot of rapid, disconnected, and somewhat sarcastic questions here, which makes it a bit difficult for me to give you a coherent response. But I'm going to try. Let me focus on the issue of "criminals" vs. "law-abiding citizens."

As I said before, drawing a sharp line of demarcation between "criminals" and "law-abiding citizens" can be misleading. The division only looks sharp if you focus on the far extremes of behavior--e.g. the difference between someone with no criminal record and someone with multiple felonies. However, between these extremes is a big grey area that we shouldn't ignore.

In the US, about 25% of the working-age population has a criminal history of some kind. That is to say, 1 out of every 4 adults have, at some point in their lives, been taken into custody by law enforcement and fingerprinted. This has received a fair amount of press coverage lately, usually in stories relating to the ongoing unemployment crisis.

The background screenings employers run on prospective employees usually take the form of fingerprint checks. If a prospective employee has ever been fingerprinted for any reason, a "hit" will appear on his or her record. A "hit" can mean anything, from an arrest for public drunkenness to an arrest for murder. The employer doesn't know, because criminal records are private. Only the prospective employee has a right to see his or her records. All employers can do is request the prospective employee provide them with a disposition of the relevant case. They can then review the disposition and decide whether or not the charge is serious enough to merit disqualifying the would-be employee.

But there's a problem. Many, many companies won't do this. Many companies have a "zero-tolerance" policy when it comes to background checks. If a background check on a prospective employee comes back with a hit, that person is automatically removed from consideration. It doesn't matter if they were arrested for jaywalking or murder-for-hire. Either way, their applications are tossed aside.

I know I am getting a little removed from the issue of gun control. But I am trying to make a point. I am trying to explain how easily a person can end up tagged with a label like "criminal" even though they really don't deserve it. It shows how subjective and unreliable such labels can be. Do you think 25% of the US working-age population are "criminals?" I don't.

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#432024 - 04/10/11 03:21 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
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I was being very specific. Far fewer acts of gun misuse or crime while carrying on their person occur from someone legally holding a CCP then someone who isn't authorized to do so by law. One issue with this, is that some of the more pacifistic people out there who have never been under a serious physical threat would look at a lot of self defense uses of guns and say "they just shot for no reason" but having been under physical threat on my life I think in more cases then not it was genuine self defense. If someone is showing hostile intent and has the capacity to hurt you immediately then you have a right to use physical violence (not saying shooting but force nonetheless).
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#432056 - 04/12/11 08:38 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Yo Do you think 25% of the US working-age population are "criminals?" I don't.


Where do you get your statistics from?

Duane

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#432059 - 04/13/11 03:39 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Yo Do you think 25% of the US working-age population are "criminals?" I don't.


Where do you get your statistics from?

Duane


I can actually believe it's somewhere close to that. It's saying any crime. A lot of people will do small stuff.
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#432082 - 04/13/11 06:38 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
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As we have seen already "believing" a statistic is close isn't the same as the actual statistic. Remember 87.35% of all statistics that people quote are made up to prove a point.
Duane

There are three types of liars-liars, damn liars and statisticians-Mark Twain

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#432084 - 04/14/11 03:50 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Guess it comes down to faith. You never can be certain really, just choose what sounds right to you.
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#432091 - 04/15/11 07:23 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Happy Birthday Cord Offline
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From a UK perspective, dealing with frontline conflict management for 2 decades, I will try and address some of the points raised in this conversation.

1. Every HandGun/automatic rifle used today in the UK was sourced illegaly, or activated illegaly. Our olympic pistol team has to store their weapons, and train with them in france!! There have been several 'arms aministice' drives over the last 60 years, that have seen pretty much all old WWII service revolvers handed in, destroyed, or deactivated.
Glocks, AK's, mac-10's - these have NEVER been legal weapons in the UK in live-fire form. There has been a flourishing illegal trade in reactivation of decomissioned firearms however, but its not like in the US, where there are tens of thousands of registered weapons lying around to be stolen or sold unwisely.

2. The escalation in gun crime represents a shift in culture, and nature of punishment within the UK.

When I was a teenager, and for generations before that, settling a dispute with a weapon branded you a coward. If you pulled a knife/gun, you were admitting you couldnt fight. Territoriality, money, love, whatever the dispute, you would never deprive yourself the pleasure of putting fist to face.
Guns were the preserve of organised crime and high-stake robberies- manely used as tools to ensure cooperation, and not to be used lightly. Knives were for muggers. By and large, this was the order of things, and for murder to take place, there had to be a strong motive - life had value, both to the offender, and the court, where sentencing for murder meant 25 years minimum in jail. Even the organised violence of football hooliganism rarely resulted in death.

All that has changed now. When young people fight now, they are more prone to kill- kicking/stamping when the fight is over and won, pulling a knife, or shooting out of some inflated sense of bravado. I leave the reasons for this shift to the psychologists to ponder, but I can tell you, as a former 'bad lad' that if guns had been readily available to me, or my peers, we wouldnt have used them- because nothing was worth killing for.
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#432093 - 04/15/11 02:00 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
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The tool used is really a trivial detail, doesn't make much difference, it's a cultural (or sub-cultural I guess) and psychological trend that has to be addressed.
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#432094 - 04/15/11 02:57 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
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Hey Cord is football hooliganism really like that movie Green Street Hooligans.
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#432095 - 04/15/11 10:32 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
Okay
So the US has, and has had, legal firearms for generations. Nowadays it is like a fictitious mind-set:

"Dear would-be robber,
On this street of sixty homes are 28 families with firearms.
Are you feeling lucky?"


Edited by iaibear (04/15/11 10:34 PM)

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#432096 - 04/15/11 11:09 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
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What exactly are you getting at?
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#432097 - 04/16/11 05:39 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
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Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Hey Cord is football hooliganism really like that movie Green Street Hooligans.


Football Hooligans in Europe can be disturbingly well organized. Although not totally gone, authorities in England seem to have taken a much tougher stance against hooligans than in some other European countries.

I don't want to de-rail the thread too much, but there are a lot of football hooligan documentaries on youtube and google videos. The last one I saw was about hooliganism at the 2006 World Cup. One of the more disturbing scenes showed amateur footage of huge gangs of German and Polish hooligans agreeing to meet-up to have a large scale brawl.


Edited by Prizewriter (04/16/11 10:08 AM)
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#432098 - 04/16/11 09:13 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
With a good chance of failure and/or personal danger to themselves, would-be robbers would not consider it worth the risk.

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#432100 - 04/16/11 01:12 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: iaibear
With a good chance of failure and/or personal danger to themselves, would-be robbers would not consider it worth the risk.


Not a fictitious idea.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432102 - 04/16/11 04:27 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Happy Birthday Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Hey Cord is football hooliganism really like that movie Green Street Hooligans.


heh, not these days. The golden age of hooliganism was the late 70's to late 80's in the UK, but a few pivotal events changed the scene forever.

1.The Heysel Stadium fatalities of 1985 led to a concerted international coordination of police to track and control the travel of known hooligans.

2. The Hilsborough stadium fire of 1989 led to terraces being outlawed and replaced with all seated football grounds (terraces were standing areas where violence was focussed)

3. The proliferation of CCTV at football grounds, and in public streets of the UK meant that coordinated group violence/activity could be easily identified and dealt with quickly.

Outside of that, Green Street never got it right. No way a septic would get an in with a crew like that after a couple of right hooks.

If you want to see a film that captures the spirit and culture behind the scene, check out 'The Football Factory' - got it about right.

Nowadays, while some firms are still active (Cardiff, Milwall and others), the real football hooliganism in europe happens in the former soviet states, where police control is not as organised, and the gangs idolise British hooligans of old, and model themselves on them. They also have a great deal of support/interaction with the neo-nazi/nationalists of their respective countries.

Holland still likes a tear up as well, but they too have faced similar sanction to the UK.
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#432103 - 04/16/11 04:38 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
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Interesting. But what do you mean a septic?
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#432108 - 04/17/11 04:59 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Happy Birthday Cord Offline
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septic tank = yank, ie. a citizen of the united states smile
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#432109 - 04/17/11 10:23 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Cord]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Originally Posted By: Cord
septic tank = yank, ie. a citizen of the united states smile

Much grass

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#432110 - 04/17/11 04:30 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
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Ouch how did we get a nickname like that? I must say I was also pretty skeptial that old Frodo was taken in as a close friend so easily, in my experience it doesn't work like that. God hwy did they have to pick that weenie to be the American? Worst choice possible, I sat there wanting to knee him in the face repeatedly from a tie clinch as I watched the movie. I watched Football Fatory, it was much better.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432111 - 04/17/11 05:15 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Happy Birthday Cord Offline
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Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Its rhyming slang. Pretty much think it stems from a large number of british soldiers coming home from WWII to find their wives/girlfriends/sisters fallen prey to less than immaculate conception courtesy of randy GI's wink

Glad you liked football factory, having known a few hoolies over the years, I recognised truth to a fair few of the characters in that movie. Its still romanticised to hell, but its pretty close.

Next stop in your fictional education should be 'I.D.' and 'The Firm' - both great movies on the subject, but not as much fun smile


Edited by Cord (04/17/11 05:19 PM)
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#432112 - 04/17/11 08:43 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
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Ah that sounds about right. Heh they always paint a picture of how much more moral people were in those days, but young sex starved soldiers are really the same regardless of era.
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll take a look at those.
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