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#422789 - 10/05/09 03:18 PM Pure styles vs MMA
BigWiggly Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Ohio
Hey everyone,

Id like to give everyone some background into myself before I get way into the topic.

The studio I train at teaches traditional N&S shaolin (mostly animal styles totaling about 30 kung fu styles/systems)We train in the classical manner, warm up workout lasting for a good portion of the class, new material, then usually open floor workout on what ever we want.

Now for the topic

I know not everyone here does kung fu, and not just pure styles. But for those who do, does anyone else believe that because we dont do as much competition fighting that we are looked upon as weak? I know that it might be hard to imagine someone using a Wu Mei crane style during an entire street fight, which would be rediculous and probably not the best choice, but I feel like the tapout UFC MMA style fighting is sort of destroying the pure ancient styles that have been refined for thousands of years. I know that if I fight someone I will mix styles like dragon, crane, or mantis... but it isnt the same as modern MMA stuff. I actually felt bad when overhearing someone say that kung fu artists should do more UFC style MMA competitions while leaving out (what I would call important stuff) many moves such as eye attacks, pressure point strikes. I dont believe that you can have a real Kung fu fight if the fighters werent ready to be severly injured or killed. (obviously illegal). I guess I am just tired of the bad rep that prue styles are starting to get in the fighting world that is killing strong good attacks and replacing them with western style wrestling.

I just wondered what y'all think about this and I'll be sure to add more about what I think since that was pretty broad.

Hope you all are having a great day and I await your replies!

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#422793 - 10/05/09 05:02 PM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: BigWiggly]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hello and welcom

Have studied some Taiji, but I am total noob regarding CMA.

The problem you detail isn't unique to traditional Chinese Martial Arts. It is a problem many Traditional Martial Arts face, be they Chinese, Okinanwan, Indonesian, Japanese etc....

The first thing a person has to do is ask WHY AM I TRAINING? Is it as a hobby? Excercise/Wellbeing? For the social aspect? Or do they want to learn how to fight?

Once a person answers that, then they can make a better choice as to what kind of training they want to pursue.

MMA isn't making traditional arts look "weak" because it uses a lot of wrestling. It is making traditional arts look weak because MMA employs an "alive" training method that most traditional arts don't.

Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at critically. If something can be improved by changing the training method (e.g. making "dead" training "alive") then why not do it? A classic example of when old, traditional arts had a successful change in training methodology is when Jirgo Kano developed traditional Ju Jutsu from Koryu arts into an "alive" system called Judo. Judo had many of the same principles and movements of the Koryu arts, but trained in an "alive" manner. It is a matter of historical record about how successful Judo was against the more traditional styles of Kano's era in 1 vs. 1 matches.

There are some people out there who are move their Kung Fu training from a "dead" method (such as form training) to a more "alive" method.

You have to ask yourself why it is more people are moving towards MMA/Grappling training. This training seems to attract people who want to know how to fight. That is their goal. The "alive" training methodolgy employed by MMA and most Grappling arts (Judo, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Sombo etc...) and some striking arts (e.g. Boxing, Muay Thai) will generally teach a person how to fight in a more realistic manner, and almost certainly do it a lot quicker.

You have to decide what it is you want to do. Personnally I feel Traditional Arts have a lot to offer, and if you love doing them keep doing them. However, if all you want to do is learn how to fight, then looking in to more "alive" training may be the way to go. That could mean taking up some sort of "alive" art (like boxing or judo) or it could mean learning to make your own training more "alive".

BTW, here is a far more articulate explanation of the idea of "alive" training from Matt Thornton. He compares the idea to that of static/dead training:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...ton+&hl=en#


Edited by Prizewriter (10/05/09 05:03 PM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#422798 - 10/05/09 06:01 PM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: Prizewriter]
BigWiggly Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Ohio
Good video, I completely agree with you, and thats a great way to think about it. Im glad you brought that up. I think to clarify myself is by saying it's more than just using the styles in a fight as much as it is preserving the style to get the maximum benefits in a real fight. like I said, if I got into a fight that was like the one in the movie you showed me, (and it was a serious attack by someone wanting to kill me), you can garuntee I would be ripping out their eyes and stabbing them in the neck. Ive always liked the training that we do for application. fighting a senior student that is going to react to your attacks as well as attack you back (starting slower and eventually adding power and speed after getting used to the sparring for a few times).

I think Im more upset that the art seems to be disappearing and being replaced by the ufc style jabs and entirely strength oriented grappling.

By the way, I do consider origional boxing to be a pure style.

Thanks for that video and explination, makes sense to me.

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#422802 - 10/05/09 10:21 PM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter

MMA isn't making traditional arts look "weak" because it uses a lot of wrestling. It is making traditional arts look weak because MMA employs an "alive" training method that most traditional arts don't



Amazin' idnit?! wink


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#422809 - 10/06/09 08:25 AM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: BigWiggly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: BigWiggly
I think Im more upset that the art seems to be disappearing and being replaced by the ufc style jabs and entirely strength oriented grappling.


BigWiggly -

Good grappling technique does not rely on strength to be effective. However, strength and conditioning are major factors in a fight. Both skill and conditioning are necessary to be the best fighter. Please do not confuse the two concepts.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#422818 - 10/06/09 10:31 PM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: MattJ]
BigWiggly Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Ohio
yea I shouldve worded it a little more appropriately. sorry, I didnt mean there was no style, timing, or skill. I guess Im just trying to say that It would seem that Kung fu as the traditional art is being viewed as weaker due tot eh popularity of other styles. But I clearly see how "Prizewriter"s idea of the alive-ness of practice can really affect how people view it and how it's used in modern times.

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#422822 - 10/07/09 02:36 AM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: BigWiggly]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Honestly, its not the fault of the martial art that people in the mainstream look down upon TMAs. Who is it to blame? The practitioners, plain and simple, because they fail to realize that their training method lacks aliveness. If you want to compare this to a handyman and his tool box. Well, many TMAs out there simply train enough to get the tools. They have the ability to hurt somebody if they land the technique. Now how to ACTUALLY apply the technique they don't really know. So its kind of like a handyman with the best tools he can buy, but he has no clue how to use them. Or maybe he does, but he sucks at what he does.

Again this only goes for people who train MA with fighting as one of their goals. Train applications, yes please do. BUT, you need to eventually step up the resistance so that you learn to apply the technique to a resisting partner.

No I'm not hating on TMAs or Chinese Martial Arts (I practice CMA too) but its up to the person to realize the limitations of their training method. And many times people don't see it, so they continue on their merry way getting a false sense of confidence that they could pull off the techniques they know.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#422833 - 10/07/09 12:25 PM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
BigWiggly Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Ohio
Great metaphor, made me laugh. I completely agree with you, and nothing came off as trashing TMA's. I guess I just never looked at it quite like that. I think subconsciously I was thinking the same sort of thing but couldnt word it correctly. In all seriousness, thank you for all of that, Im glad I started this. smile

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#423024 - 10/20/09 12:20 AM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: BigWiggly]
Tarnak Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 1
I don't personally know very much about kung fu or other, as you call them "pure" styles.

However, one of my good friends has been doing kung fu for a long time and is now training for his black belt. He is extremely quick and more versatile than I would expect.

I personally believe that in a real anything-goes fight, ground work in general is really not a good idea. In my gym we train with fake eye gouges and saying "bite" when a bite is possible... my kung fu friend has also told me it is easy to rip off someones ear or tear open their cheek.

He's got a good point. In a real fight if someone tackled me and i had a line on their eyes or ears or cheek i would tear their face apart. someone trained to fight only under MMA rules would be in some ways at a disadvantage to a kung fu black belt.

That being said, most martial arts styles have been altered for MMA. Some have been able to hold their own, some not.

In general it's my opinion that well kung fu has something to offer in self discipline and a few brutal techniques, overall it has too many vulnerabilities to a versatile fighter trained in multiple more viable forms of no-rules combat.

I'd like to see a fight to the death between a MCMAP black belt and a Kung Fu one.

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#423029 - 10/20/09 10:15 AM Re: Pure styles vs MMA [Re: Tarnak]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
Originally Posted By: Tarnak
I don't personally know very much about kung fu or other, as you call them "pure" styles.

However, one of my good friends has been doing kung fu for a long time and is now training for his black belt. He is extremely quick and more versatile than I would expect.

I personally believe that in a real anything-goes fight, ground work in general is really not a good idea. In my gym we train with fake eye gouges and saying "bite" when a bite is possible... my kung fu friend has also told me it is easy to rip off someones ear or tear open their cheek.

He's got a good point. In a real fight if someone tackled me and i had a line on their eyes or ears or cheek i would tear their face apart. someone trained to fight only under MMA rules would be in some ways at a disadvantage to a kung fu black belt.

That being said, most martial arts styles have been altered for MMA. Some have been able to hold their own, some not.

In general it's my opinion that well kung fu has something to offer in self discipline and a few brutal techniques, overall it has too many vulnerabilities to a versatile fighter trained in multiple more viable forms of no-rules combat.

I'd like to see a fight to the death between a MCMAP black belt and a Kung Fu one.

Bas Rutten on eye-gouging - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA_NYMPVL8c

"Never [censored] off someone who has a dominate position on you."


Edited by DeadlyKnuckles (10/20/09 10:16 AM)

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