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#422290 - 09/12/09 10:28 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Originally Posted By: medulanet
However, if the unstoppable light heavyweight champ is doing something no one else is doing...wait...no, your right, his traditional training doesn't give him an advantage.


Med, to be clear, I was only referring to kata practice. I agree that the karate-sparring differences do seem to have an impact on his wins in the octagon.
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#422304 - 09/12/09 02:45 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Originally Posted By: JKogas
I've heard all he does now is train MMA.


Comments like this are a little silly. Does Anderson Silva only train MMA (and not muay thai) or does Couture train MMA (and doesn't train wrestling). I wonder what Machida would say about the matter.

Karate is his BASE for his MMA training/fighting. Just like wrestling is Couture's base. Its one thing to be careful to overstate the role of Machida's traditional training in his MMA success, but another to attempt to marginalize it in a way no other art which is utilized in MMA is. For EVERYONE who once believed that karate could not be utilized effectively as a base for MMA, get over it.


To me what it sounds like is Karate people need to get over their insecurity of their art. That Machida has a Karate background the Karate community is jumping all over this and taking a sigh of relief that all of their training was for not. "See, we told you that it wasn't crap"

Nobody is disputing that Machida has a Karate background. Nobody is disputing that Machida he has taken elements of that art and incorporates it into his fighting style. We are also not blind that Muay Thai, BJJ and other arts have only made him better as Karate alone is not enough and even Machida knows this.

Let's get some things straight. When Machida is preparing for a fight he is training all aspects that he needs. He is training his stand up, he is training his timing and distance and footwork, he is training his sprawl, he is training his take downs, he is training his clinch work, he is training his knees, he is training his ground work and he is training is submissions. Now one can say he is training Karate, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and so on however since he is training all of these aspect he is training MMA; making John's statement valid. That Machida's roots came from Karate and is his base doesn't matter, not more then it matters for other fighters like GSP who is a Karate guy or so many other fighters that came claim the same or claim it for other arts. When they all train and they fight they are doing MMA.

If Machida was only doing Karate and not the other stuff and he stepped into the MMA ring, we would never know who he is because he would have failed. But as Machida is a fighter first and foremost with a fighter mentality and trains as a fighter complete, he has made a name for himself. It wouldn't matter what art he did as it is Machida that is the base and the key factor in all of this.

Now don't take this the wrong way, Karate is a very valid art, any art is if taught correctly. But I like to look beyond that and not get trapped in a linear belief. If 10 people were trained the exact same skills as Machida by the same Instructors, each person would show different degrees of understanding and executable skills with Machida most likely standing out the most. It wasn't that the teachings were less it was because Machida was the key factor. This tells me it doesn't matter what art Machida took he would be where he is today.
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#422311 - 09/12/09 08:25 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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Originally Posted By: medulanet
Originally Posted By: JKogas
I've heard all he does now is train MMA.


Comments like this are a little silly.



Just explaining what I've heard. If it's silly to hear things...I guess I'm guilty as charged. Otherwise I cannot comment on his training because I've never seen him train.

HAVE YOU?!

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#422313 - 09/12/09 09:08 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: JKogas
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Originally Posted By: JKogas
I've heard all he does now is train MMA.


Comments like this are a little silly.



Just explaining what I've heard. If it's silly to hear things...I guess I'm guilty as charged. Otherwise I cannot comment on his training because I've never seen him train.

HAVE YOU?!


I have seen what's on TV and the net of his training. Did you ask the guys that told YOU about his training if they have ever seen him train, or are you just taking it at face value because it falls into your current MMA belief system.

However, I wasn't referring to you hearing something as being silly, but I guess that's the only thing you could think of that I was referring to. What is silly is such a general statement, especially when MMA is not any specific style. Couture's MMA is quite different from Damien Maia's. If you mean he trains some sort of grappling and some sort of stand up, then you are right. But now that's about as general as you can get when referring to MMA. Anything can pretty much be used, if trained right.
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#422314 - 09/12/09 09:17 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Just remember, what you train and what you utilize are different things. I have seen videos of Couture train in kick boxing. However, he doesn't really use Muay Thai or kick boxing in the cage, now does he? If I wrote an article expounding Couture's wrestling base and how he utilizes it to be a successful MMA fighter, would you or JKogas tell me that "All he trains is MMA" and his base is largely irrelevant? Its not about insecurities about one's art, its about discussing karate's usage and then hearing this its not karate its just MMA stuff. But let me say that about wrestling, BJJ, or boxing...but I guess its that attitude and MMA training paradigm which is also contributing to Machida's success.
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#422327 - 09/13/09 09:28 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I'm not going to totally dismiss Machida's Shotokan. Obviously part of what he is as a fighter is a result of his karate training.

But it's important to note all the other non-karate training Machida has done in order to make himself functional in the ring. So yes, Shotokan is a part of what he does, and so is wrestling, and BJJ. It's similar to Karo Parisyan's Judo. Obviously that guy is a very high level judoka, and he is able to make some stuff work in the cage that most couldn't. But he is able to make it work because he trains a variety of non-judo things. Therefore, what he does is no longer judo. While we're on the subject, I would say the same thing for most BJJ and MT guys you see in MMA these days--none of them are doing 'BJJ' or 'MT' (although you can debate what BJJ is probably).

Quote:
Its not about insecurities about one's art, its about discussing karate's usage and then hearing this its not karate its just MMA stuff.


Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone say that it was 'just MMA stuff'. What I did read, and what I have read in the past, are folks stating the kata is an integral part of Machida's pre-fight training, and the idea that his kata work is as important as his 'mainstream' MMA training. I doubt this very much, and will until some evidence is shown (besides a video which simply shows him practicing kata). What seems to have informed Machida's expression far more than kata is (amazingly) the shotokan point fighting method.

What gets me is all the implied 'we told you mma guys that tma was valuable'. What is ironic about this is that Machida is good example of what John and Matt have been saying for awhile, that is, in order to functionalize your tma training you need to use the MMA methodology. In other words, you're not going to see MMA fighters use kata to functionalize their training anytime soon, and 99% of fighters are perfectly fine without it. Yet, Machida did need to use MMA to functionalize his karate.

--Chris
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#422339 - 09/14/09 01:56 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Ames]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
anyone know what exactly vitor is going over during his karate sessions? or if he is spending enough time at it to make the skills be usefull under presure?

i have to admit that a part of me is happy that some people are doing well with karate backgrounds in mma now, at least the drunks at the bar don't talk so much sh!t anymore, lol.
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#422342 - 09/14/09 02:45 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: student_of_life]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Ames -

Quote:
in order to functionalize your tma training you need to use the MMA methodology. In other words, you're not going to see MMA fighters use kata to functionalize their training anytime soon, and 99% of fighters are perfectly fine without it. Yet, Machida did need to use MMA to functionalize his karate.


Yup, exactly what I have tried to say. Any art can be used as a base in MMA, provided that it is trained full-range, and with resistance. I don't think I've ever said otherwise.
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#422343 - 09/14/09 03:59 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Agreed.
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#422346 - 09/14/09 05:17 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Quote by Ames -

Quote:
in order to functionalize your tma training you need to use the MMA methodology. In other words, you're not going to see MMA fighters use kata to functionalize their training anytime soon, and 99% of fighters are perfectly fine without it. Yet, Machida did need to use MMA to functionalize his karate.


Yup, exactly what I have tried to say. Any art can be used as a base in MMA, provided that it is trained full-range, and with resistance. I don't think I've ever said otherwise.


You may not have, but there are people here who have said in the past that karate is not an effective base for mma training and competition. In addition, it seems that if one trains karate along with other striking then their karate work is minimalized and their success is attributed more to the more standard MMA striking disciplines. Correct me if I am wrong, but if a Muay Thai fighter trains in karate is suddenly his effectiveness attributed to his karate? I have seen people argue that since an individual whose base art is karate has trained in other striking disciplines then it is the boxing, muay thai, etc. which can be attributed to his success. Am I wrong, is this no longer done? Or can we attribute Vitor's success more to his karate than his boxing since 2001?

If its all just MMA then why do we even continue to mention styles in regard to MMA? MMA includes everything that is useful, right? Because people are still adding to what the MMA training paradigm includes and one person's MMA training looks different from another's. There seem to be some core principles and everything else is simply what works for the individual.
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