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#422692 - 10/02/09 05:19 PM Machidausing karate in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: IExcalibui2
well Machida's form in the ippon kumite has to have come from somewhere. At some point in his training, prior to adding resistance, he had to do solo movements that involved him moving around by himself and hitting the air.

I mean here's a video up on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-uw15ygdBU
I'm sure some of this footwork has shown up in kata?

btw - how did you post up the youtube video?


This video looks no different then the what was trained in Taekwondo. AND I suspect is taught in many other martial arts; nothing really new here. Only difference is Machida is doing it. grin
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#422693 - 10/02/09 05:51 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
The interesting thing to me is most MMA guys always want to discuss what pro fighters do, however, the number one prerequisite for being an elite pro mma fighter is athletic talent. All other things are secondary. Brock Lesnar put an emphatic exclamation point on this fact.


Well, you are talking about heavyweight fighters, and I believe Gibberer had a good point in that there is an inverse relationship between size and skill needed. I don't see any old 155er walking in off the street and kicking BJ Penn's a$$, LOL.

Kimbo Slice also clearly needs more than just physical attributes.

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=422583#Post422583

Quote:
The second part of fighting is timing. I don't care how much you spar, if you ain't got it then you will never succeed, that is, unless you have the athletic portion and a high pain tolerance.


But I think we can agree that sparring is BY FAR the quickest way to gain timing, barring odd cases.

Quote:
If more sparring was all there was to fighting then that's all the pro fighters would do, however, they do much, much more. You spar to get the timing and find a balance between how technique should be performed and how it will actually be applied. To spar just to spar is stupid training. Maybe that is the non pro fighter tough guy MMA mantra.


Not at all. No one that I know spars to teeth-cracking extremes all the time. But even at low-intensity, the resistance helps you work timing, momentum and distancing in ways that nothing else will.

Quote:
However, kata trained properly teaches a lot about positions that one's body may find itself in during a fight. I can pick out stills from fights that look very much like kata. I have seen picture perfect strikes with chambers that come straight from kata from non karate guys in MMA. Why would non karate guys perform movements that are from kata without ever training it?


Whoops! Now it seems like you're trying to reverse-engineer kata into places it doesn't belong. The fact that you see these positions from people that *don't* do kata kind of undermines the argument to do it in the first place.
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#422694 - 10/02/09 05:54 PM Re: Machida using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
First and foremost, NOBODY is saying that Karate is a poor martial art or that Karate doesn't make a good base for MMA; never read or said that at all. What is being said is that when training to be a MMA fighter the philosophy and how one trains changes to allow the fighter to cover all aspects of the game. That kata is limiting where as fighting is free flowing; ever changing. And that kata training would be very low on the list and can be removed from ones training easily enough and replaced with better training methods.

Quote:
Quoted by Cord:

I would also add that many excellent athletes succeed despite their life and training choices.


Very well said Cord; couldn't agree more.

Quote:
Quoted by medulant:

However, kata trained properly teaches a lot about positions that one's body may find itself in during a fight.


I don't agree with this. Katas are too linear and don't take into fact the different facets of the person in front of you that your are fighting. Katas are specific patterns with names that individuals can practice by themselves or in groups. This mean they look the same so you are not free moving or adapting to changes. And movements are specific and many times awkward not realistic at all.

Quote:
I can pick out stills from fights that look very much like kata.


What a revelation. I can take stills and see people standing just like I see them standing everyday. I can take stills of people in awkward stances or even what appears to be dance like moves. We all see what we want.

I don't know how to word what I want to relate here but basically people fought and trained to fight and bits and pieces were later taken and put into katas; so it is no doubt you can see this. So with the understand that the fighting is the main issue then it is easily to deduct that great fighting comes from training not from katas however katas would not be anything without the fighting. So why not focus on training to fight then putting efforts into katas.

Quote:
I have seen picture perfect strikes with chambers that come straight from kata from non karate guys in MMA.


Again wrong. Perfect strikes don't come from kata they come from training. Without the training then kata would not have been able to show this. It is only because of the hard training such as fighters do and have always done that katas were able to incorporate this. Which again leads back to better training methods to accomplish these tasks other then kata.

Quote:
Why would non karate guys perform movements that are from kata without ever training it?


You just proved my point. They are not performing movements from kata, they are displaying movements from training and fighting. .

Quote:
Its because kata is not a karate thing, but a fighting thing. It was developed for real fighting by real fighters from experience in real fights. Get good at understanding its uses and where it fits in real fighting and you can get real good at just that.


HUH? Without hard training and fighting there would be no kata. Without kata hard training and fighting would still exist. Stop putting the cart before the horse.

Quote:
Think how good those fighters would be if they understood why their fighting drifted from their classic boxing techniques to "karate" style techniques in the heat of battle.


HOLY COW, what a load of crap. Again, keep grasping.
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#422695 - 10/02/09 06:44 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Well, you are talking about heavyweight fighters, and I believe Gibberer had a good point in that there is an inverse relationship between size and skill needed. I don't see any old 155er walking in off the street and kicking BJ Penn's a$$, LOL.


To tell you the truth, the lighter weight classes are great, but a 155 lb man is not the opponent I am personally training for. So yes, I am discussing the larger fighters. Mainly because adding weight classes is a way to equal the playing field. If MMA was open weight the sub 200 lbs. guys would be a thing of the past.

Quote:
Kimbo Slice also clearly needs more than just physical attributes.

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=422583#Post422583


Uh, what "attributes" does Kimbo have. He has an imposing physique, but does that acutally translate into athletic skill? He weighed in for his TUF fight at 230, hardly an incredibly large man. He looks strong, but doesn't fight strong. He isn't exceptionally quick. So I'm a little confused by this comparison. What makes YOU believe Kimbo Slice has elite and/or superior athletic talent? Being somewhat big and black is not a qualifier no matter what popular culture may tell us.

Quote:
But I think we can agree that sparring is BY FAR the quickest way to gain timing, barring odd cases.


I didn't argue that it wasn't. In fact, I stated that it is used for this. However, MMA types always say don't do kata, spar more. But is this really sound advise. Do we tell boxers to stop shadow boxing and spar more, or Lesnar to stop lifting weights and roll more (oh, wait, that's what Mir said and he got taken apart)?

Quote:
Not at all. No one that I know spars to teeth-cracking extremes all the time. But even at low-intensity, the resistance helps you work timing, momentum and distancing in ways that nothing else will.


See above.

Quote:
Whoops! Now it seems like you're trying to reverse-engineer kata into places it doesn't belong. The fact that you see these positions from people that *don't* do kata kind of undermines the argument to do it in the first place.


Actually, the fact that they are fighting in a way dissimilar to how they train is the point. But I guess that is a good strategy for some.
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#422696 - 10/02/09 06:56 PM Re: Machida using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Dereck
I don't agree with this. Katas are too linear and don't take into fact the different facets of the person in front of you that your are fighting. Katas are specific patterns with names that individuals can practice by themselves or in groups. This mean they look the same so you are not free moving or adapting to changes. And movements are specific and many times awkward not realistic at all.


So you have a different fight strategy and different techniques for every single different person you ever face? Interesting.

Quote:
What a revelation. I can take stills and see people standing just like I see them standing everyday. I can take stills of people in awkward stances or even what appears to be dance like moves. We all see what we want.

I don't know how to word what I want to relate here but basically people fought and trained to fight and bits and pieces were later taken and put into katas; so it is no doubt you can see this. So with the understand that the fighting is the main issue then it is easily to deduct that great fighting comes from training not from katas however katas would not be anything without the fighting. So why not focus on training to fight then putting efforts into katas.


Because katas help us pick up where others left off rather than reinventing the wheel over, and over, and over again.

Quote:
Again wrong. Perfect strikes don't come from kata they come from training. Without the training then kata would not have been able to show this. It is only because of the hard training such as fighters do and have always done that katas were able to incorporate this. Which again leads back to better training methods to accomplish these tasks other then kata.


Is that why everyone who trains hard has such great technique? Perfect techniques begin with knowing how to do the technique correctly? Is that not how you train?

Quote:
You just proved my point. They are not performing movements from kata, they are displaying movements from training and fighting.


And think how good they would be if they actually understood how to utilize some of these movements properly.



Quote:
HUH? Without hard training and fighting there would be no kata. Without kata hard training and fighting would still exist. Stop putting the cart before the horse.


That's funny, because forms of "kata" have existed for thousands of years, even back in the pankration days fighters had a form of kata. So maybe hard training and kata go hand in hand more than you think.

Quote:
HOLY COW, what a load of crap. Again, keep grasping.


So anything that does not fall in your belief system is "grasping?"
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#422697 - 10/02/09 07:33 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Originally Posted By: Cord

Explain!? You dont get drunken fights break out in your town at bar closing time? There is nobody in your town that has a bit of a 'rep' for being handy with his fists? Nice town, and very atypical.


Yes, we call it a "fight". I think you'd get laughed at if you called it unarmed street combat where I'm from. How about where you're from?

So people like karate? What's the problem with what I've been saying then? I've already agreed that kata are not for everyone, some people may find them strange, but that some people do find them useful. What is one way that boxers train for speed and timing with their hands? With a speed ball...and is that how they punch in a fight?

Do you think ist would be possible to be a bit more constructive and discuss some of the positive things that Shotokan and karate techniqu and training can bring to the MMA ring?

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#422698 - 10/02/09 08:46 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
To tell you the truth, the lighter weight classes are great, but a 155 lb man is not the opponent I am personally training for. So yes, I am discussing the larger fighters. Mainly because adding weight classes is a way to equal the playing field. If MMA was open weight the sub 200 lbs. guys would be a thing of the past.


Well, OK, but you're cherry-picking your argument here. And I'm not even sure that all the -200lb guys would be gone. Anderson Silva? Dan Henderson? GSP?

Quote:
Uh, what "attributes" does Kimbo have. He has an imposing physique, but does that acutally translate into athletic skill? He weighed in for his TUF fight at 230, hardly an incredibly large man. He looks strong, but doesn't fight strong. He isn't exceptionally quick. So I'm a little confused by this comparison. What makes YOU believe Kimbo Slice has elite and/or superior athletic talent? Being somewhat big and black is not a qualifier no matter what popular culture may tell us.


I don't remember bringing up his blackness. But what makes me believe that Kimbo has some innate athletic ability? Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because both EliteXC and the UFC thought enough of him to sign him up? Did you see how he came within a hair of reversing Roy Nelson - a BJJ BLACK BELT who outweighs Kimbo by 35 pounds - in the first round? He seems athletically comparable to everyone else there, just lacking skill.

Quote:
I didn't argue that it wasn't. In fact, I stated that it is used for this. However, MMA types always say don't do kata, spar more. But is this really sound advise. Do we tell boxers to stop shadow boxing and spar more, or Lesnar to stop lifting weights and roll more (oh, wait, that's what Mir said and he got taken apart)?


Meh. Personally, I do think that shadow-boxing is a waste of time, but that's just me. Lifting weights is a different category, IMHO.

Quote:
Actually, the fact that they are fighting in a way dissimilar to how they train is the point. But I guess that is a good strategy for some.


??????????

Why do they need kata to do something they have already figured out how to do? It will get far sharper from sparring than it will from doing kata.
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#422699 - 10/02/09 09:26 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Well, OK, but you're cherry-picking your argument here. And I'm not even sure that all the -200lb guys would be gone. Anderson Silva? Dan Henderson? GSP?


They would be around, but not under 200. They would all have to bulk up rather than cut. Size matters.

Quote:
I don't remember bringing up his blackness. But what makes me believe that Kimbo has some innate athletic ability? Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because both EliteXC and the UFC thought enough of him to sign him up? Did you see how he came within a hair of reversing Roy Nelson - a BJJ BLACK BELT who outweighs Kimbo by 35 pounds - in the first round? He seems athletically comparable to everyone else there, just lacking skill.


You didn't, I just did. It was part of Elite XC's/Kimbo's "Street Certified" marketing plan for Kimbo. And an almost reversal is very little in the grand scheme of things. Or maybe I don't hold a BJJ black belt in as high regard as you do in an MMA context (since its not really BJJ that matters and its all MMA). A hard bridge/bump is not a difficult thing to do. In fact, Kimbo had several chances to escape from Roy had he listened to his coaches, got an underhook and bridged/bumped. In fact, an escape from bottom is not the hardest thing to do. Roy isn't exactly a "terror" on top either. Did you see his devastating punches? Kimbo has enough altheticism to just get by, but not to dominate. Are you trying to compare him with Lesnar or even Rodgers? Maybe we have a different understanding of what elite athleticism is.

Quote:
Meh. Personally, I do think that shadow-boxing is a waste of time, but that's just me. Lifting weights is a different category, IMHO.


Definitely. MMA opened the eyes of many to the whole skill vs strength debate. But I've been lifting since I was a kid so I knew what many combat athletes (wrestling, football, etc) have known for a long time.

Quote:

??????????

Why do they need kata to do something they have already figured out how to do? It will get far sharper from sparring than it will from doing kata.


That's just it, it is an instinctual reaction which they don't develop into a trained response but just shoot from the hip. I already know how to run, but if I train to run the I will be better at it. In addition, I may train to run, but if I don't know how certain situations my naturally change my running technique, and I don't learn how to use this altered technique in a productive way, I may get by on my athletic skill alone, but I would be much better if I had training on how to utilized these alterations more effectively.
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#422701 - 10/03/09 06:15 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: medulanet
[That's just it, it is an instinctual reaction which they don't develop into a trained response but just shoot from the hip. I already know how to run, but if I train to run the I will be better at it. In addition, I may train to run, but if I don't know how certain situations my naturally change my running technique, and I don't learn how to use this altered technique in a productive way, I may get by on my athletic skill alone, but I would be much better if I had training on how to utilized these alterations more effectively.


Would you train to run by lying on your back and waving your legs in the air?
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#422703 - 10/03/09 10:20 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
They would be around, but not under 200. They would all have to bulk up rather than cut. Size matters.


Sure it does, but so does skill. I think between 230lb Nogueira and 185lb Silva, that Silva could take that. I would give 170lb GSP good odds against 240lb Frank Mir. Skill vs strength isn't a simple either/or thing.

Quote:
maybe I don't hold a BJJ black belt in as high regard as you do in an MMA context (since its not really BJJ that matters and its all MMA).


Come on, bro. Now you're being ridiculous. No one can be effective in MMA without BJJ - no one. You can strike with boxing or Muay Thai or karate or sanshuo. You can wrestle or do sambo or judo or shoot-wrestling. But you can't do without BJJ. BJJ *is* the foundation of MMA, the common thread that all MMA fighters have. No one has been successful without it. BJJ is a separate case, and you know it.

Quote:
A hard bridge/bump is not a difficult thing to do. In fact, Kimbo had several chances to escape from Roy had he listened to his coaches, got an underhook and bridged/bumped. In fact, an escape from bottom is not the hardest thing to do.


See.......you're being dishonest here, too. Escaping from the bottom is exactly THE MOST DIFFICULT THING TO DO IN A FIGHT. Especially when the guy is bigger than you, and moreso when the guy is also more skilled than you. The fact that Kimbo, with comparitively little ground experience, was almost able to completely turn himself over against a 35lb heavier, much better groundfighter speaks volumes for his athletic ability.

Quote:
Roy isn't exactly a "terror" on top either. Did you see his devastating punches? Kimbo has enough altheticism to just get by, but not to dominate. Are you trying to compare him with Lesnar or even Rodgers? Maybe we have a different understanding of what elite athleticism is.


I consider most pro-athletes to be elite. I am not sure who you are comparing them to. Roy was doing well against Andre Arlovski on the ground, and only a BS stand-up allowed Arlovski to win. Nelson isn't Lesnar.....but who is? And Rodgers? Yeah, I think Kimbo vs Rodgers is a valid comparison. Both are hard punchers with little training and no ground skill. I don't see where Rodgers could automatically kick Kimbo's a$$.
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