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#422393 - 09/18/09 05:24 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Medulanet, as you addressed my post, and I posted a reply to you, I would be interested in a response in kind to my comments smile

Originally Posted By: IExcalibui2
well I'd have to say that not all forms are just you punching the air.


Please show me any pre-choreographed form/kata that is performed with strikes to a real person inherent in that performance.

Quote:
Many forms out there are used to develop certain strengths


So is weight training, but how many times to we here from TMAists that strength alone is not enough to make a good fighter?

Quote:
at least in Southern Praying Mantis. Many of the forms in SPM can be comparable to the Sanchin kata in karate (because that form was influenced from southern CMA). So MY experience with doing forms are completely different.


No, you are still doing forms.

Quote:
Lots of dynamic tension is in play, helping to strengthen our fingers or wrists


But without the limbs dealing with the impact of striking, you are not developing the wrists to cope at all - Its like dry firing a gun on the range to get used to the kickback.
Charles Atlas used to advocate dynamic tension, things have moved on a bit since then in strength conditioning.

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etc etc. Learning to control strength in a certain fashion or apply the strength a certain way when you punch, etc etc.


Already established that the movements in kata are not how they are done in application. Driving a car doesnt mean you can ride a motorcycle.

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Are these, directly fighting techniques? no


Neither is chess, but it was developed to improve strategy in war. Does being good at chess make you a good fighter?

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but I'm exercising my body and the mechanics needed when I do perform the techniques in a more resisting manner. So to me, it does have a purpose in training.


So, to you, Kata is a form of strength conditioning right? Fair enough, but there are better, less time consuming, more efficient ways of developing biomechanicaly functional strength, that would leave you more time and energy to practice your art in a realistic manner, which would in turn make you a better fighter.

Quote:
This is why I don't like it when people simply write off kata/forms as being useless "dancing."


Hey, if you enjoy it, its all good, but if you are doing it for an effect, as opposed to doing it for the satisfaction of being good at forms, I would suggest there are better methods available.
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#422394 - 09/18/09 10:00 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Now that's funny Matt. Mainly because of all the marketing BS involved with the original UFC. Let's see, what would happen if I hand pick karate guys with little to no grappling experience and put them in with our golden boy who has spend his life learning how to use his grappling art against strikers?


Med - several inaccuracies in that statement. The "handpicked" competitors were as good representatives of their respective as could be found at the time. The fact that many of them had no grappling experience was typical of karate training at the time. And Royce - as you know - was hardly the "golden boy" of the Gracie's - he was, at best, the 6th or 7th best fighter in that family. So, the 'handpicked' comment regarding the other fighters is disingenuous.

Quote:
ALL arts have limitations. Its just the UFC was originally a marketing tool to make the Gracies money, make BJJ out to be the ulitmate fighting art and "expose" the weakness of other arts while protecting the weakness of BJJ.


This is also inaccurate, as the rules of the UFC matches did not favor grappling at all - they merely allowed it, unlike the vast majority of karate competitions. So few other schools trained submission grappling, they were easily defeated by it. The 'weakness' of BJJ only really became exposed as more people trained in it, to learn how to defend it. Please don't re-write history.

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It was this aim that hindered MMA early on and to this day. Arts like karate were not explored as applicable in that environment and the vast majority of those training in MMA did not explore these arts. Due to this MMA is VERY generic now and a few fighters are exploring different avenues to great success. Hitting the thai pads hard does not a fighter make. And hopefully more fighters will stop playing it safe and explore the useful fighting techniques and principles from more of the TMAs.


See above.
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#422399 - 09/18/09 03:24 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Med - several inaccuracies in that statement. The "handpicked" competitors were as good representatives of their respective as could be found at the time. The fact that many of them had no grappling experience was typical of karate training at the time. And Royce - as you know - was hardly the "golden boy" of the Gracie's - he was, at best, the 6th or 7th best fighter in that family. So, the 'handpicked' comment regarding the other fighters is disingenuous.


Yes, Royce was "hand picked" to be a "golden boy." He was picked because of his size. To have a muscular Rickson gracie destroy people would not have had the impact of a skinny kid. They picked him because of their business plan to sell GJJ. And their knowledge of what a skilled GJJ practitioner could do to those who did not have a good knowledge of how to defend their submissions.

Quote:
This is also inaccurate, as the rules of the UFC matches did not favor grappling at all - they merely allowed it, unlike the vast majority of karate competitions. So few other schools trained submission grappling, they were easily defeated by it. The 'weakness' of BJJ only really became exposed as more people trained in it, to learn how to defend it. Please don't re-write history.


Not the rules of the game, but the players. No one is rewriting history, just stating the facts. There are countless of videos of Gracies fighting all manner of strikers. Did they get any strikers will credible ground skill? No. Did they get a GJJ guy to fight with no experience fighting strikers? No. Your statement is right. Strikers not trained in grappling are easily defeated by it in the cage. However, grapplers not trained to fight strikers are as well. And we all know now that the gracies had extensive training using their art against strikers.
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#422400 - 09/18/09 03:36 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Cord
But I would argue that if the nature of the classes, and the focus of the art as widely taught, has changed, and that is why it has lost its appeal to 'fighters'.
Its not like there was a mass exodus from karate schools to MMA in 1995 - MMA appealed to , and drew athletes from, boxing, muay thai, and BJJ more than karate, because the intensity and application of those arts had drawn fighters away from karate long before UFC 1, or Vale Tudo had been thought of as defined entities.


The exit happened when the non fighters started coming to class. How would you like it if your muay thai turned to cardio kickboxing and the karate guys were the only ones fighting full contact?

Quote:
Remember, I am not saying karate is bad/useless or whatever - never have, and i dont train in 'MMA' either, but having trained in 2 different kinds of karate, at different times, in different places, and worked in healthclubs that hired their studios out for karate clubs amongst others, that the attitude, focus, and priority in karate in general, does not equate with the training and atmsophere that you find in a fighting gym, like a competetive MT or boxing club.


What if the karate club was a kyokushin karate club which was training for international competition? Its hard to relate "recreational" martial artist to ones training for full contact competition. Again, its like saying kickboxing is no good because you have had a lot of experience with a cardio kickboxing class where they don't do any contact.

Quote:
Karate has marketed itself on different values, and thats fine, but in so doing, has managed to attract a great many people with low self esteem, issues with conflict, the meek, the paranoid, and the overly earnest.
Those arent people wanting to learn to fight, they are looking for cheap therapy.
Obviously by nurturing that membership base, the arts rep. has suffered, but thats not other arts fault, all Karate had to do was stand strong and keep appealing to the same types as it did in the 60's - 80's , and it would have many more machida's and Urquidez's.


You are right. That may be why I only have one adult student.

[/quote]And i know there are plenty of 'real' karate schools out there, but if you're honest, you will acknowledge that they are in the monority given the bigger western picture.[/quote]

Definitely. However, it has been my experience that most things in mainstream western culture loose a lot of their value when they go "mainstream." Everything from hip hop to karate has done this so its no surprise.

Quote:
Who knows, maybe Machida will inspire a new generation to look at karate again, but i think if that is the case, that it will more likely restore the spirit of karate, than re-invent mma.


No one is reinventing MMA. In fact, MMA didn't reinvent anything, just reintroduced. No matter what new, cool, groovy things we come up with it has already been done before. And maybe karate can restore even more of what has been lost.
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#422401 - 09/18/09 04:06 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Yes, Royce was "hand picked" to be a "golden boy." He was picked because of his size. To have a muscular Rickson gracie destroy people would not have had the impact of a skinny kid.


But Royce was also picked specifically because he *wasn't* their best fighter, either. If he failed, then Ralph, Renzo or Rickson, etc, may have stepped in. So your claim of the other stylists not being great or the best holds little water in that sense. Neither was Royce.

Quote:
They picked him because of their business plan to sell GJJ. And their knowledge of what a skilled GJJ practitioner could do to those who did not have a good knowledge of how to defend their submissions.


Well, of course that was the point. But they didn't rig the matches for any particular favor for grappling, beyond allowing it, as I mentioned before.

Quote:
Not the rules of the game, but the players. No one is rewriting history, just stating the facts. There are countless of videos of Gracies fighting all manner of strikers. Did they get any strikers will credible ground skill? No.


That is correct, Med - but why is that? I'll tell you why. Because karate people of that era (me included) didn't think that grappling was necessary or useful. There weren't many karate guys that knew anything like what the Gracie's did, bro.

It wasn't a conspiracy. That was the prevailing attitude.

Quote:
Did they get a GJJ guy to fight with no experience fighting strikers? No. Your statement is right.


Yes, the Gracies had experience with strikers, but come on - Royce was a lousy striker, by any standards. My point is that karate folk of that era did not deign to train grappling because they didn't think it was necessary - they (we) were wrong.

Quote:
Strikers not trained in grappling are easily defeated by it in the cage. However, grapplers not trained to fight strikers are as well. And we all know now that the gracies had extensive training using their art against strikers.


Yes, because striking was the predominant form of karate - again, no conspiracy. And the Gracies proved that strikers with no knowledge of grappling (remember the era) were at a disadvantage compared to grapplers.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#422404 - 09/18/09 07:00 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Cord
So is weight training, but how many times to we here from TMAists that strength alone is not enough to make a good fighter?


okay, lets be real here. If you lack strength (not just pushing power) it'll be hard for you to fight.

The chinese have a saying which lists the importance of characteristics needed in a fight.
1) guts - if you dont have the guts to fight, why fight?
2) strength - you have to have some kind of strength to win (big muscles, huge power, ferocity, striking power, grappling power, whatever)
3) kung fu (technique) - the last thing on your list should be how good your technique is. Because if all you have is technique, you're going to go down when you meet someone stronger than you.

Quote:
No, you are still doing forms.

if you want to say it in such a generic way, then yes i am doing forms. I don't do forms with the mind set that this is how its going to be in a fight, because theres 100x more variables when you enter one. I'm here to practice the different type of strengths needed in a technique, the body alignment and mechanics, etc.

imo, its more comparable to shadow boxing, just that its planned out already.

Quote:

But without the limbs dealing with the impact of striking, you are not developing the wrists to cope at all - Its like dry firing a gun on the range to get used to the kickback.
Charles Atlas used to advocate dynamic tension, things have moved on a bit since then in strength conditioning.

er..not entirely true, unless you have hardcore evidence to back this up. My wrists were fine before I started to cross train and hit pads and people. So when I went to college and engaged in more "modern" methods, I blended in just fine.

Theres always alternative methods to develop something. Just because a lot of people out there like to lift weights, doesnt mean its the law.

Quote:
Already established that the movements in kata are not how they are done in application. Driving a car doesnt mean you can ride a motorcycle.

maybe for some people, but the way I've learned to punch in a form is pretty much the same I punch when I'm doing partnered drills.


Quote:
So, to you, Kata is a form of strength conditioning right? Fair enough, but there are better, less time consuming, more efficient ways of developing biomechanicaly functional strength, that would leave you more time and energy to practice your art in a realistic manner, which would in turn make you a better fighter.

yes, the main benefit I get from doing forms is the strength conditioning, practicing body alignment, and (you guys can laugh if you want, but its my belief) developing chi.

I'm not saying that forms/katas will make you almight and ultra strong, definitely not. Certain strengths are developed in forms, others in drills and resisting exercises, and others in things like weight training. I understand that and so I branch out my training a bit so that I can be strong overall.

and forms arent too time consuming at all. My sifu and mentor tells me to practice 1 form (something similar to Sanchin) once or twice a day. Which is something like a total of 10 minutes....come on, you don't have 10 minutes in your day?

Quote:
Hey, if you enjoy it, its all good, but if you are doing it for an effect, as opposed to doing it for the satisfaction of being good at forms, I would suggest there are better methods available.

better for you or for me? I've found my niche and understand very well at what forms do for me and don't do for me. I think forms are important, but they aren't everything. They are only 1 piece of puzzle. Some people focus on it way too much, and I think thats foolish because you won't ever be able to use what you know. Others skip over it thinking nothing of it, which I think its rather naive of them because they are missing out on some good stuff.


Edited by IExcalibui2 (09/18/09 07:10 PM)
_________________________
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#422405 - 09/18/09 07:10 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Originally Posted By: Cord
But I would argue that if the nature of the classes, and the focus of the art as widely taught, has changed, and that is why it has lost its appeal to 'fighters'.
Its not like there was a mass exodus from karate schools to MMA in 1995 - MMA appealed to , and drew athletes from, boxing, muay thai, and BJJ more than karate, because the intensity and application of those arts had drawn fighters away from karate long before UFC 1, or Vale Tudo had been thought of as defined entities.


The exit happened when the non fighters started coming to class. How would you like it if your muay thai turned to cardio kickboxing and the karate guys were the only ones fighting full contact?


But why did non fighters start coming to class if the class itself hadnt changed to accomodate them?
Its not 'my' Muay Thai either btw, until my knee snapped I was a savateur, right now I am trying to work out what I can do in the future.
Its interesting that by reversing reality, you manage to equate kata with tae-bo though wink

Quote:
What if the karate club was a kyokushin karate club which was training for international competition? Its hard to relate "recreational" martial artist to ones training for full contact competition. Again, its like saying kickboxing is no good because you have had a lot of experience with a cardio kickboxing class where they don't do any contact.


Within driving distance, I have 2 MMA schools that enter full contact competition, I have one Savate club that has members of the GB squad, 2 Muay Thai clubs that put their fighters out on the circuit, 1 judo club involved in competition and several boxing clubs that are affiliated with the ABA. I have zero access to Kyokushin or Seido full contact karate.
All these clubs do well - there is a base of interest to sustain them, so why do all the local Karate clubs market, and appease the 'recreational' martial artist? Why has Karate gone from the Bob Wall's of the world, to the Ross from Friends image? The fault lies with the teaching of the art.
Why would karateka allow their art dwindle to a point where it needs machida to validate it?

Quote:
Quote:
And i know there are plenty of 'real' karate schools out there, but if you're honest, you will acknowledge that they are in the monority given the bigger western picture.


Definitely. However, it has been my experience that most things in mainstream western culture loose a lot of their value when they go "mainstream." Everything from hip hop to karate has done this so its no surprise.


Not sure you can draw that analogy. Rap is still rap, its mainstream status has come from its acceptance, and its lack of 'shock' or novelty value. It's attitudes towards it that have changed, not the music.
You acknowldege that the shift in style of teaching/marketing in karate was the catalyst for the change in its mainstream status, which is the opposite situation.


Quote:
No one is reinventing MMA. In fact, MMA didn't reinvent anything, just reintroduced. No matter what new, cool, groovy things we come up with it has already been done before. And maybe karate can restore even more of what has been lost.


I never said MMA was new, but maybe Machida is restoring what has been lost from Karate with his MMA training, not using karate to restore anything to MMA?
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#422407 - 09/18/09 07:16 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Cord

Not sure you can draw that analogy. Rap is still rap, its mainstream status has come from its acceptance, and its lack of 'shock' or novelty value. It's attitudes towards it that have changed, not the music.
You acknowldege that the shift in style of teaching/marketing in karate was the catalyst for the change in its mainstream status, which is the opposite situation.

I for one do not think that mainstream hip hop music of today is comparable in terms of quality compared to the late 80s and the 90s. I'm sorry, completely off topic but I'm a big fan of hip hop and I cry every night about how people listen to crap like Soulja Boy...

alright back to martial arts

when something hits mainstream, imo, the quality of the product/service declines for the most part. Hip Hop is an example, and I guess a result of the TKD and Karate explosion in the west has led to things like McDojos.

And now everyone talks about Muay Thai and BJJ. Well we have San Shou/San Da schools that say they teach Muay Thai now or skip out on the other half of the curriculum to just teach basic striking and grappling. Even MT camps in Thailand barely teach the more "advanced" techniques (whether its illegal or otherwise) because they're just focused just purely on fighting in the ring.

Not to say people can't become effective fighters but, you're missing out on so much of the art because the school is more focused on schedule matches than passing on their knowledge.


Edited by IExcalibui2 (09/18/09 07:21 PM)
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#422408 - 09/18/09 09:01 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Cord
But why did non fighters start coming to class if the class itself hadnt changed to accomodate them?
Its not 'my' Muay Thai either btw, until my knee snapped I was a savateur, right now I am trying to work out what I can do in the future.


But that's just it. The classes had changed, so the fighters left.

Quote:
Its interesting that by reversing reality, you manage to equate kata with tae-bo though wink


Not too sure what this means, but okay?

Quote:
Within driving distance, I have 2 MMA schools that enter full contact competition, I have one Savate club that has members of the GB squad, 2 Muay Thai clubs that put their fighters out on the circuit, 1 judo club involved in competition and several boxing clubs that are affiliated with the ABA. I have zero access to Kyokushin or Seido full contact karate.
All these clubs do well - there is a base of interest to sustain them, so why do all the local Karate clubs market, and appease the 'recreational' martial artist? Why has Karate gone from the Bob Wall's of the world, to the Ross from Friends image? The fault lies with the teaching of the art.
Why would karateka allow their art dwindle to a point where it needs machida to validate it?


You said it all here. The fault lies with the art's teaching, but not the art itself. I am not defending karate instructors, but the art itself.

Quote:
Not sure you can draw that analogy. Rap is still rap, its mainstream status has come from its acceptance, and its lack of 'shock' or novelty value. It's attitudes towards it that have changed, not the music.


I'm not trying to get into an argument over Hip Hop, but have you been listening to it since the early 80's or did you hop on the bandwagon when it went pop? I would love to illustrate just how it has changed dramatically when it went pop, but here is not the time or the place.

Quote:
You acknowldege that the shift in style of teaching/marketing in karate was the catalyst for the change in its mainstream status, which is the opposite situation.


Opposite of what, your losing me here.


Quote:
I never said MMA was new, but maybe Machida is restoring what has been lost from Karate with his MMA training, not using karate to restore anything to MMA?


No, Machida is not restoring karate, he's just undoing some of the damage that the performances of guys like Fred Ettish and the like did to it. The funny thing is that although some people have a negative/joke view of karate, as many times as I have told people that I practice karate, I'd never know it. So maybe the joke is not the art, but the jokes who practice it today.
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#422416 - 09/19/09 09:58 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
With redirection like that, maybe you should switch to aikido wink

Look, we seem to be in agreement that fighters stopped investigating Karate, not because of MMA, but because the Karate classes widely available changed to no longer cater for those wanting to fight.

This means that of those who did take up, and stick with Karate, many were not using it, nore learning it to fight.

These people then reached a level high enough to teach and pass on their non combative take on karate, to others who also did not/do not want to use it as a fighting art.

At what point as this cycle evolves, does the art stop being martial?

If I cannot walk into a karate club, and be guaranteed to be learning skills and application in equal measure, then is it any wonder that those wanting to learn to fight, have looked to methods other than karate?

Dont be sore at MMAists for Karate bashing, be sore at your own community for giving them the ammo over the last 30 years.

As for hip-hop, the 1st no 1 rap record was by Blondie, and that pre-dated gangster rap, Public Enemy, LL, Run DMC,and either of the Ice's.

My point about Rap was that it didnt tone down to sell records, it's popularity stemmed from its notoriety. It was the new punk - the sound of rebellion,of political unrest, and its most hardcore artists were the Rap mainstream, and continue to be so. Thats why Eminem has lasted, and Tone Loc hasn't.

Karate needs to find its Public Enemy collection, and throw out the MC Hammer
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