FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 21 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 2
Zombie Zero 2
AndyLA 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
Recent Posts
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
Yesterday at 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
09/02/14 06:26 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432492 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 11 of 16 < 1 2 ... 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 >
Topic Options
#422667 - 10/02/09 03:16 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Originally Posted By: Gibberer
One of the aims of kata is to train timing and footwork.


HOLY COW. You are grasping and things are slipping away for you. I can train timing and footwork all I want with an imaginary opponent but something changes when you put a real person in front of you and that kata bull$hit goes out the window. You need a live and breathing opponent (many in fact with different fighting methods) in front of you who does move and does what you do not expect. Everything changes when that person is trying to hurt you; something a kata can't. You want to work on timing and footwork then stop doing kata and do more sparring.


I'm still waiting for an answer....why do you think that Machida includes 4 katas in his MMA training video?

I've always been under the impression the best way to learn something would be first to practice it without pressure, and then introduce the pressure. ie. basics to forms to sparring, which is the basis of shotokan. Does this approach seem wrong to you in anyway? Are you advocating that practice should only contain full resistance activities?

Top
#422671 - 10/02/09 04:40 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Kata training is more than kata performance! You can't learn to box by shadow boxing alone, hitting the pads alone, etc. And you can't get good at fighting very fast by sparring without learning proper techniques, combos, fighting strategy, etc. For all of those who try to seperate simple kata performance from karate's other training methods, its no wonder you turned to MMA. That's kids class stuff.


But I return to a previous discussion in this thread - in the bread and butter Karate classes, that you, or I, or the next budding UFC competitor can walk in to begin our karate training, how likely is it that Kata will be taken beyond 'simple kata performance'?

Gibberer has already said in his defence of kata, that his school downplay prctical kata applications(bunkai), for focus on kata in and of itself - "Kids class stuff"

Of course fighters do more than spar, they have to be physicaly fit and strong, as well as learning fight mechanics and technique.

Kata is not the best way of conditioning the human body. Even the Okinawans recognised this, as they used their own forms of resistance (fixed axle barbells, weighted pots). It may be a way of rudimentary exercise that requires no equipment, and can be done en masse by a group easily, but convenience is hardly the benchmark of efficacy.

If you are using it to learn technique, it must play a very '101' role in the that process, as any and all application of technique is reliant on the reaction and interaction with the reciever of that technique.

There is a story about an amazing fighter (cant remember his name), but he was asked what his training consisted of, he answered '100 submissions per session'.
The next day the fighter walked in to find the asker of the question applying chokes and bars to a dummy-bag in quick succession.
"What are you doing!?" he asked, perplexed. The guy replied "100 submissions, like you said!". The fighter replied "no, I roll until I get 100 submissions"
wink

And in answer to the world of absolutes, if a guy who had done nothing but learn technique and applied it to nothing but kata, took the pepsi challenge with someone who had zero formal training, but had a history of being in violent situations, I would be betting on the latter.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#422673 - 10/02/09 07:57 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
med, i think the difference between what were saying is just semantics. for me the solo kata is the kata, and from there i work on kata based stuff, but i don't really call it kata after the solo preformance. thats like splitting hairs. but it is all related, kata kihon and kumite.

the kata based stuff includes application drills with varrying resistince, and even different kinds of sparring games that cover alot more than what the kata is limited to, variations outside whats represented in the kata. you can call that kata if you want, but if you call that kata you can call anything kata. what ever floats your boat.

the only thing i turned to mma for was to help open my eyes beyond what karate is limited too. and my karate helps open my eyes to what the mma is limited too. does that make sense? its all limiting crap in one way or another, but i use the right tool to help ME get better at something. i don't think that kids class stuff, i think thats the way it should be.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#422677 - 10/02/09 10:48 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:
Our dojo has a heavy bag and we train with full resistance. Sorry, but you're idea of what traditional shotokan is, is wrong.


I'm not going to touch the full resistance thing, except to say that likely you're idea of full resistance and mine are very different.

I'm sure you guys have a heavy bag in your dojo. My point, however, (and I probably should have included shadow boxing to make this more obvious) is that mma fighters tend to use the heavy bag and shadow boxing for solo development of the attributes you say kata develops. Machida also uses these methods. So MY question would be, if kata does such a great job of teaching "timing and footwork" why does Machida ALSO need to train these other methods?

More to point, I also wonder why other great strikers who have a phenomenal sense of timing (think:Anderson Silva) don't bother with kata, yet arrive at high level abilities? In other words, if we look at all the current champions, what we will see is that they all (including Machida) use the bag and shadowboxing during solo practice to work timing and footwork. Only one does kata. So you're insinuation, and the constant question of
Quote:
why do you think that Machida includes 4 katas in his MMA training video?


Is unanswerable by anyone other than him...but the fact remains, that only he trains kata, but needs to supplement it with other methods build the same attributes, whereas other high level fighters do not need to supplement their solo attribute training with kata.

The fact is, that for the majority of this thread hasn't really centered on tradional karate in its totality, but rather one part of it (one which was a relatively small part of it until recently, when those who taught didn't necessarily have actual fighting experiance): kata. As I've said before, if there is anything I would isolate in Machida's training that has heightened his countering skill, it would be the ippon kumite, NOT kata. Why? Because watching video of him doing ippon and mma, one (even one who, like myself, isn't an uber karate expert who knows the 'secrets of the kata') can readily see the crossover in attributes; whereas I can see little obvious crossover between kata and his mma.

Now you, or anyone else, can say "well you just don't know enough about the subtleties of kata to make an informed judgement.' Maybe. But then the kata bunnies (joking) will have to make an argument as to why kata forms a better method of solo drilling the attributes of footwork and timing than the more commonly used (including by Machida) methods of bag and shadowboxing, citing specifics, not generalities.

In other words, neither myself, or--likely--anyone else here, is going to attempt to clarify Machida's use of kata without him stating the direct benefits it has to his MMA training that no other drill does.

This isn't meant to be dismissive of his shotokan background, because obviously that has played a role in what he does. However that background is being conflated with 'kata' so that all of sudden shotokan = kata, when in fact there could be so many other factors within even his shotokan training (leaving out his other training) that have helped him along the way.

So what I'm disagreeing with here is the idea that kata is the primary (or even secondary) method that has allowed the counter ability of Machida to develop. Futher, I doubt that any system which priortized kata training would lead--even someone with the natural ability of Machida--to the fulfillment of his or her potential.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (10/02/09 10:55 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

Top
#422678 - 10/02/09 11:12 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Ames]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Nicely written Chris.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#422679 - 10/02/09 11:44 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Ames]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Nicely put Ames cool

I would also add that many excellent athletes succeed despite their life and training choices.

Michael Phelps is a phenomenal swimmer, who eats a lot of junk food, smokes weed and chews tobacco.

Would all swimmers out there improve by eating an abundance of fried chicken, smoking a bowl every night and carrying a spitoon to training? No way.

Whilst I am not saying Kata is as potentialy harmful as these things, it illustrates a point that to the truly gifted, negative, or wasted efforts can make little impact on their potential or performance.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#422680 - 10/02/09 12:08 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Ames]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Originally Posted By: Ames


I'm not going to touch the full resistance thing, except to say that likely you're idea of full resistance and mine are very different.


Wow...big tough man. As I said previously, most people in my dojo are training a few different arts including a 2 dan guy who does BJJ as well. He kept trying to take it to the ground 2 weeks ago which was fine, failed, got stamped on the head and knocked out. Ambulance was called and he got taken to hospital. Is that full-resistance enough for you? Does he get a special you're extra tough medal for well hard martial artists? Of course the head stamp wouldn't have been allowed in UFC...so maybe you're right...we do have different ideas of full-resistance.

I'm quite surprised at the lack of respect here. All I am saying is that Shotokan can be used as an effective stand up style in MMA, combined with other skills. Is that such a crazy thing to be saying? Really? Is it that controversial?

I have also said that I believe kata to be an effective tool in learning certain things,combined with the other methods of shotokan training, and I also assume Machida finds some benefit in them too, otherwise he wouldn't include them in his training video.

The response basically amounts to karate sucks, it's for kids and kata are stupid. I guess I'll just have to disagree with all these MMA tough guys and unarmed street combat masters (I'd love to know what unarmed street combat is by the way...if someone could explain?)

Top
#422682 - 10/02/09 01:32 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
well Machida's form in the ippon kumite has to have come from somewhere. At some point in his training, prior to adding resistance, he had to do solo movements that involved him moving around by himself and hitting the air.

I mean here's a video up on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-uw15ygdBU
I'm sure some of this footwork has shown up in kata?

btw - how did you post up the youtube video?


Edited by IExcalibui2 (10/02/09 01:33 PM)
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

Top
#422683 - 10/02/09 02:10 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Gibberer
The response basically amounts to karate sucks,


Not at all. I like Karate.

Quote:
it's for kids


No more, or less, than any other art. Nothing wrong with young uns training is there?

Quote:
and kata are stupid.


I would use the term unproven, or even obsolete, but never stupid - hard work and dedication is always to be respected.

Quote:
I guess I'll just have to disagree with all these MMA tough guys


How many times? I . am. not. a. 'MMAer' in the sense you use the term. I do look like one though wink

Quote:
and unarmed street combat masters (I'd love to know what unarmed street combat is by the way...if someone could explain?)


Explain!? You dont get drunken fights break out in your town at bar closing time? There is nobody in your town that has a bit of a 'rep' for being handy with his fists? Nice town, and very atypical.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#422691 - 10/02/09 05:10 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
The interesting thing to me is most MMA guys always want to discuss what pro fighters do, however, the number one prerequisite for being an elite pro mma fighter is athletic talent. All other things are secondary. Brock Lesnar put an emphatic exclamation point on this fact. The second part of fighting is timing. I don't care how much you spar, if you ain't got it then you will never succeed, that is, unless you have the athletic portion and a high pain tolerance. If more sparring was all there was to fighting then that's all the pro fighters would do, however, they do much, much more. You spar to get the timing and find a balance between how technique should be performed and how it will actually be applied. To spar just to spar is stupid training. Maybe that is the non pro fighter tough guy MMA mantra. However, kata trained properly teaches a lot about positions that one's body may find itself in during a fight. I can pick out stills from fights that look very much like kata. I have seen picture perfect strikes with chambers that come straight from kata from non karate guys in MMA. Why would non karate guys perform movements that are from kata without ever training it? Its because kata is not a karate thing, but a fighting thing. It was developed for real fighting by real fighters from experience in real fights. Get good at understanding its uses and where it fits in real fighting and you can get real good at just that. Think how good those fighters would be if they understood why their fighting drifted from their classic boxing techniques to "karate" style techniques in the heat of battle. Think how much better they could be if they trained to fight how they actually fought when they were tired, hyped off of the adrenaline, and in a "fight for their life."
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
Page 11 of 16 < 1 2 ... 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga