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#422605 - 09/30/09 06:06 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Ha ha...lol, fair enough, I guess there isn't anyway to prove or disprove the usefulness of kata...I think it's safe to say though that Machida does think they are useful, as I think it's also safe to say that he doesn't spend hours each day doing them! What is pretty blatant though is that he doesn't just train modern MMA with modern methods and there is a more traditional approach to his training aswell. I'm sure it's not the most efficient way, but it seems to work for him.

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#422614 - 09/30/09 09:27 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I agree, nobody doubts that he does them but like Cord has pointed out it doesn't necessarily have any effect on his ring effectiveness. To me it is his ritual and perhaps makes him feel grounded. Many fighters have rituals in preparation for fighting; doesn't mean it equates to being a better fighter.
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#422615 - 09/30/09 10:11 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Originally Posted By: Gibberer
Sorry to all the guys who are dissing kata and saying Machida doesn't do them....but....from the Machida-do training DVD:


I think you have misunderstood. I have never doubted that Machida does kata. I just doubt what kata training has done to help his MMA.
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#422619 - 09/30/09 02:05 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Now, I am not sure who, but I do remember guys on FA.com stating that the proof that kata does not help one's fighting ability is that there are NO pro fighters who train kata. Now we learn that one of the best does. And he just happens to be the only elite level fighter I know of who currently uses karate as a base for his MMA training/fighting. Could it be that kata is central to HIS karate which he has proven effective in the cage? Do we really know more about the keys to Machida's success than he does?
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#422622 - 09/30/09 02:46 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Actually, I think what was said was that the vast majority of champs didn't train kata. I am still doubtful that kata helps Machida more than his BJJ, but who knows. In any case, the non-kata champs still vastly outnumber the kata champs. Maybe that will change in the future.
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#422625 - 09/30/09 06:21 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Dereck Offline
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Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: medulanet
Could it be that kata is central to HIS karate which he has proven effective in the cage?


Now that would be absolutely ridiculous. I don't believe for one moment that his kata is "central" to his training and I highly doubt any person that understands fighting and martial arts as a whole thinks that either.

We all have no doubt he does it, the question has always been its effectiveness. If this was removed from his training the question would be, would he be as effective? The answer is YES, 100%. He is a fighter with skill and that he wants to take the time to hold true to his Karate roots does not impact how he trains to fight. Too many people are grasping on to the tiniest hopes that all of that kata training was for not and that it is effective for fighting and self defense.

1. Person "A" trains all of the elements of fighting and self defense with live training and resistance. He is put to the test over and over during sparring and fighting in the ring. He does no kata; never has.

2. Person "B" trains portions of the elements of fighting and self defense through kata only. Does not do any live training and has no resistance.

Who is going to be the more effective fighter? Who is going to be the more effective person to defend themselves? Obviously the only answer is Person "A".

Without kata you are still effective but with kata alone you are not. That one person decides to throw kata into their fight training does that make kata a key factor? Most certainly not, it is just something extra that can easily be replaced with more fight training. And please take into account that Machida is a gifted fighter that can afford to probably do less training then some but still be better then most.

What I personally think is that he probably trains harder then most to be a fighter and still can afford to do his kata which he probably does to keep ties to his roots and to share it with his family. But if one day he said he wasn't going to do kata anymore he would still be the same fighter he is now; not because of kata but because of himself.

I will always put my faith in the person and their natural talents and any live training with resistance.
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#422626 - 09/30/09 09:40 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Simple question... if Machida thinks kata are inneffective then why does he include them on his training video?

Also, comparing kata to BJJ doesn't work. One is a style and the other is a training method.

Finally, no one is suggesting doing kata alone. That isn't karate. Kata are a part of training karate. Hard sparring is also a part of (proper) karate, so your person A and Person B comparison is totally meaningless.

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#422627 - 09/30/09 10:00 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Gibberer
Simple question... if Machida thinks kata are inneffective then why does he include them on his training video?



Possibly because they are a part of karate. That's his background. That doesn't mean he relies on kata NOW. But, by all means, practice kata. I hope everyone starts incorporating kata into their training in all honesty because I would want an advantage in dealing with them.


Originally Posted By: Gibberer

Finally, no one is suggesting doing kata alone. That isn't karate. Kata are a part of training karate. Hard sparring is also a part of (proper) karate, so your person A and Person B comparison is totally meaningless.



How many hours in a day do you have for training? Jesus, if you have endless time, then sure...work your kata in if that floats your boat. Otherwise if your time is precious...come on, there are far better things you could be doing, IMO.

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#422631 - 09/30/09 10:19 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
One of the aims of kata is to train timing and footwork. Who has the best timing and footwork in UFC and who uses kata as a part of his training and probably did a lot more kata before he got into MMA?

Answers on a postcard please, and the winner gets a free guide to shotokan kata!

Edit: By the way the training video that includes the kata is geared towards Machida's MMA fighting and not aimed at a karate market. It includes 4 katas to practice. So I repeat, why does Machida think that kata are useful for MMA...is he wrong?


Edited by Gibberer (09/30/09 10:22 PM)

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#422638 - 10/01/09 02:38 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117

Quote:
One of the aims of kata is to train timing and footwork. Who has the best timing and footwork in UFC and who uses kata as a part of his training and probably did a lot more kata before he got into MMA?

Answers on a postcard please, and the winner gets a free guide to shotokan kata!




This is simply ridiculous logic. You are leaving out so many other facets of his training here that this equation can't stand up. Just because he trains kata, and that kata (apparently) his to "train timing and footwork", doesn't mean that kata is the main ingrediant to Machida's success!

But allow me to show you why it's likely that Machida's success owes less to his kata than to his other training:

Question: One of the main points of a heavy bag is to train better striking. Who strikes well in MMA and also just happens to train with a heavy bag?

Answer: Every MMA fighter(including Machida)

Question: One of the main points of training fully resistive grappling is so that one can be competent in this one time neglected range. And guess who it is who just happens to have trained grappling for several years before becoming UFC champ?

Answer: Every UFC champion in every weight catagory has always trained grappling and always will (including Machida).

Question: One of the main points of pummeling is train sensitivity in the clinch. And who just happens to train pummeling regularly?

Answer: every competent MMA fighter trains pummeling (including Machida)

Question: One of the main points of training with fully resistive limited rules (MMA style) sparring, is so one can be more comfortable and react better during a match. Who just happens to train this kind of sparring?

Answer: Every MMA fighter (including Machida).


Question: What art traditionally contains NONE OF THE ABOVE KEY facets of training that every fighter must train to be successful in an MMA environment?

Answer: Shotokan karate.

--Chris
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