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#422476 - 09/22/09 04:11 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
LOL, Cord. Good point. Funny enough, RazorFoot and I have used that "savate" push kick to the kneecap many times in our sparring. Something that we identified as a distinctly "wing chun" technique (where we learned it from). grin

It is, many times, simply what you want to see.
_________________________
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#422479 - 09/22/09 05:52 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Originally Posted By: medulanet
However, for me, my kata is vital to my sparring. I get my fighting strategies and techniques from kata.


Question. Why is kata vital to your sparring? You say that you get your fighting techniques and stategies from your kata but cannot you admit that there are better methods to get this from? Better methods that would make your fighting techniques and strategies even better then they are now? That perhaps you may be stagnant in this area because you use kata?

I understand. You don't come from a fighting system and this is the way it has been explained to you and the way you have trained for years and years. You fall back on what has been inbred in you and what you know. This is the problem.

Fighting is not linear; katas are. Different people bring different challenges to the table. It is already hard enough to train for one person but just imagine how hard it is to train to fight different people all of the time as a career. This requires you to adapt how you train or even change up how you train to be able to compete and have a chance in winning. Something like that cannot translate into fighting imaginary opponents in a kata where nothing changes.

Those that don't adapt or change how they train tend to lose over and over until they are forgotten. Once great fighters and name brands are no longer around or have become stagnant because they couldn't change. That is similar to katas.

Just like these fighters within their own bubble may still stand out as high end fighters, so to must many that train katas for their techniques and strategies. But step outside those bubbles and those techniques and strategies may still work but in the long run you will find that they are dead ways of training and that there are better ways to do so.

But again, you are not a fighter so what you are doing works fine within your system. But I guarantee that if you did become a fighter you would scrap katas to training to fight with better methods. And if you held on to them it would be only because you have sentimental attachment or you have a hard time like many giving up old methods because "that is what we did back then"; you know, just like our Grandparents talk like.


Actually, kata is vital to my sparring because it is just the opposite of what you state. Kata is what allows me to be free. The techniques from kata allow one great flexibility in their combat/fighting. It allows one to adapt in just about any fighting environment. Defend, attack, defend and attack at the same time, strike with one hand, two, or two hands and one foot, elbows, knee strikes, forearm strikes, grappling, etc. And you are only limited by your own mind and limits. Better methods? Like what? Boxing? Now that's an art that doesn't stagnate, right? Adapt how you train? Does that mean scrap sparring for other methods? Proabably not. Fighting is simple, people try to make it complex. Kata is the same way.
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#422480 - 09/22/09 06:39 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: MattJ
LOL, Cord. Good point. Funny enough, RazorFoot and I have used that "savate" push kick to the kneecap many times in our sparring. Something that we identified as a distinctly "wing chun" technique (where we learned it from). grin

It is, many times, simply what you want to see.


Exactly, which is why I put a smiley after my comment about seeking art-specific recognition within MMA, because I truly believe that when John says 'he trains MMA', he is right, because every country and culture found the same answers for what works and what doesnt in physical fighting.

I was watching a programme about zulu fighting and their weapons, only to see them using a shillelagh!! (an Irish fighting club). Of course, they didnt call it that, but they used it just the same way, as there are only so many ways to approach smashing someones skull with a club!

I watched Mayweather beat Marquez at the weekend, and saw timimg and footwork many on here would attribute to karate.

I doubt Griffin has trained any more wing chun than he has savate, he just worked out what might work, tried it out in realistic training sessions, got good at it, and did it when it mattered.
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#422515 - 09/24/09 12:28 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:
Better methods? Like what?


How about like the methods fighters like Machida employ when they want to train to actually fight. Like MMA, for example (which is a method afterall).


Quote:
Boxing? Now that's an art that doesn't stagnate, right?


Actually, the fact that boxing is trained by ALL MMA fighers (including Machida), seems to indicate that it's far less stagnate.

Also, it's fairly obvious when someone uses boxing in a fight. Whereas with kata there is this cloak of mystery regarding exactly what from the kata is being used in the fight.


Quote:
Kata is what allows me to be free. The techniques from kata allow one great flexibility in their combat/fighting.


I'm glad it works for you. But, frankly, I've heard the same thing said about yoga.

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#422516 - 09/24/09 02:17 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Ames]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Ames
Actually, the fact that boxing is trained by ALL MMA fighers (including Machida), seems to indicate that it's far less stagnate.

Also, it's fairly obvious when someone uses boxing in a fight. Whereas with kata there is this cloak of mystery regarding exactly what from the kata is being used in the fight.


No Ames, not boxing, people in MMA don't train in boxing, they train MMA. Remember?
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#422545 - 09/26/09 09:42 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
I would just like to post a little linky linky to a Machida interview:

http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_250/294_lyoto-machida-am-fighter-interview.html

Two quotes in particular:

"My main focus is karate, which is my strength. I am also a jiujitsu black belt, and I train my ground skills regularly, and I spar to simulate a fight."

"In the mornings at around 5:30 a.m., I train karate with my family. In the afternoons I alter between training jiujitsu and sparring. After training I rest, then go on to strength and conditioning."

I wonder if Machida realises how embarrasing it is to be talking about karate like this. Perhaps he's never seen Friends so doesn't realise what happened to Ross. Surely if he saw this episode of Friends he would stop training karate immediately?

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#422552 - 09/27/09 08:32 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Gibberer
"I spar to simulate a fight."


Pretty sure he didnt just equate Kata with direct fight preparation.

Thats the joy of interperating someone's words, we can all seee what we want to see wink
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#422598 - 09/29/09 07:27 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
he engages in activities that involve both alive and non-alive techniques, and has found success in that. Whats really to talk about? Its obvious that his karate training is important to him and he incorporates that into his regular fight training.

he didn't equate kata with sparring, no they are not the same
but he does both
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#422603 - 09/30/09 01:11 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Sorry to all the guys who are dissing kata and saying Machida doesn't do them....but....from the Machida-do training DVD:

" Katas: Machida performs four katas that are both strenuous workouts and include powerhouse strikes and blocks. The last two katas are more complex and are shown at both normal speed and in slow motion."

I have some delectable slices of pie of the humble variety which I freely offer to all for the eating of.... wink

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#422604 - 09/30/09 05:18 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I never doubted for a second he did kata, I just dont think it makes a blind bit of difference to what he does in the octagon.

He does kata with his family, because thats what his family do. Same as there are millions of families out there who prey to their God(s) every day, yet still seem to have the same sh1tty luck as the heathens around them. Just because it makes you feel like its doing you good, doesnt mean their is evidence to back it up wink
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