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#422363 - 09/15/09 12:49 PM Weight Training and Aikido
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Anyone here do both? If so, how? My first teacher was a Bodybuilder too. His competition days were behind him, but he still worked out and was pretty buff. Certainly didn't seem to have any negative impact on his training!

Personally I try to engage my hold body as much as possible when doing weights/strength training.

On another forum, a bagua practioner put up this clip of "working with weight" in his Bagua. Basically using weighted vest, Kettlbell and a medicine ball I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHSGNsr48v8&feature=player_embedded

I know this has been discussed in various ways before re Aikido and Weights, but wanted to make a more direct, up to date thread.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#422370 - 09/15/09 11:30 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It depends on what you mean by weight training and specifically how such weight training is conducted.

Generally speaking, weights other than very light weights initially, are not a good idea. What you don't want to do is engage isolated muscles or muscle groups, because that defeats the entire purpose. If you do insist on using weights, I would suggest very light - no more than a few pounds, and high reps.

You probably won't need very much weight, if at all. As an example, try holding a jo at one end with an outstretched arm and see how long you can hold it out for - with just your arm only. Then try relaxing your arm and shoulders, and use your feet, legs, middle to hold the jo. Now try having someone push gently and lightly on the other end of the jo and see how much you can take without moving the jo or losing it completely.

Then reconsider if you really need weights at all... because you'll probably find that the jo exercise described requires a lot more whole body recruitment and conditioning than you think.









Edited by eyrie (09/15/09 11:37 PM)

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#422375 - 09/16/09 02:58 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 184
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
I think body training in martial arts is important no matter what style you do. It also depends on what your personal goals are in terms of training. Ive heard pros and cons of weight training with martial arts from different people as a Fitness Trainer and PT I am in favour of weights.

Functional training is GREAT for martial arts and again will compliment whatever style(s) you are into. For example:

cable split squat (static lunge) and row (would be a good functional resistance exercise for reverse punch.(karate)
Russain twists (any variations of) would be good for rotation of the trunk and core strength, good for techniques like back roundhouse, back kick or turning combination moves.(karate / tkd)
Squat jump - pull up combo is good for explosive power and jumping plus is a good strength exercise for upper body pulling movement. (as above plus Jujutsu / Judo)
Standing cable rows - good core, legs and back exercise, pulling movements in grappling and throwing (previous)
dumbbell squat and press combo (down then up) good for core strength, legs, shoulders (think bobbing and weaving in boxing)
or dumbell clean and press (with a jump on the load up) good plyometrics and plyometrics help with all MA's - even Aikido. Push ups are also a good thing to do (any variation)lets say you get put into a pin where you end up face down, ikkyo perhaps - what I do to get up after Im free is to push up and spring my legs forward so im standing, a bit like getting on a surf board - push ups and burpee's helps this movement.


In Aikido there is a lot of lunges too, mainly getting up from the floor after being uke to a technique. All the functional exercises won't hurt your MA's but will compliment it - however it must be done strategicly lets say for example today I did sets of squat and press, cable split squat and row, scissor jumps and then tomorrow I have a TKD class - my legs are going to ache! and my TKD session won't be as good because my legs are a little stiff. So what I need to do is plan it out so I can get the best of both.

Balance is also something which can be built in to weights - standing on 1 foot whilst doing side raises is good (might be good for such things as 'bending ready stance' in TKD? or crane stance in karate especialy in such katas as gankaku!)

So using weights and functional stuff, in my opinion is a good thing and SHOULD make you a better martial arts practitioner. Again though it does depend on WHAT you are training for. Body building is a sport based on asthetics/the look of the body/perportion/definition/size-to a degree and there is nothing wrong with wanting to look good or to enter competitions. Can Aikido and body building be done? I think yes, but they must be kept seperate. I went to the gym and did weights once before I went to and Aiki Jujutsu session and it wasnt good for me - it's a different mind set - I should have done a bit of cardio perhaps which would have been better (make sure you have a shower though or no one will want to go near you!)
I have a friend who trains in a body building fashion but his Aiki techniques are very good and doesnt need / use his brute force in techniques although he could if he wanted. I think it depends also on what degree you want to take body building training do you want to be like Ronnie Coleman!!!? or how about Van Damme - both body building champions to more or lesser degree.Personaly I'd like to be like JCVD, a good phsique, in perportion and flexible. Flex Wheeler was a 2nd DAN in TKD and body building champion also.

I had a conversation with my Dad when I was in my early teens (im 30 next month - DAMM!) I said "but dad, you don't need strength if your technique is good" and he said "well son, when someone confronts you and the situation is not good and your legs go to jelly - strength IS important! or fighting more than one person" True enough - and stamina - and good body mechanics - good technique and knowledge, all of which we get through training in the right way.

Maybe what we need is to be well rounded in different areas. Personaly I think to be a complete FIGHTER you need EXPERIENCE in different aspects of fighting - striking, locking, throwing, ground work, grappling, kyusho jutsu....etc

it would be good to be able to run when needed, speed, explosivness, strength, stamina and over all body conditioning and in general or good shape - of course thats the ideal world and some aspects are harder for some than others, which is what I find with myself but I keep going - unfortunetly 2 years ago in Aug 07 I nearly died in a car crash ( I wasnt driving the car) so that set me back a bit in all areas - it wasnt good - now I must work on myself to get back to my previous shape. All the best with your training prizewriter.

Charlie.

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#422377 - 09/16/09 04:24 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: charlie]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Thanks gys, good responses! Nice detail in their Charlie, hope you get better soon. Takes a lot to come from something like that so kudos to you.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#424272 - 01/04/10 09:45 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I don't see an issue with weight training and any martial art, including Aikido, with the caveat that we arn't talking about body building routines. Routines that are 'strength focus' are a good way to go; especially those that emphasis multi-joint lifts. Personally, I like to focus on single leg excerises more than double because I feel that that duplicates sports (and m.a.) recruitment patters more, meaning I choose the split squat over the olympic more often than not. But I do perform the olympic sometimes as well. I also do some fuctional strength type exercises, such as lifting sandbags. I also focus on strenthening my back, neck and grip. I just got a set of kettlebells and have been playing with those.

Periodization is key, as well as taking the time to get rid of any tension left in the muscles by means of proper stretching or foam rolling.

And no, I don't think weight training is needed to be great at Aikido (as tori). I do think it won't hurt though (if done correctly)and can also keep you training for a longer time.

Personally, I think weight training will make you a much better uke.



Edited by Ames (01/04/10 10:02 PM)
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#424623 - 01/30/10 09:40 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Ames]
Unlimited Possibilities Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 155
Loc: U.S., Delaware
Weight training and Aikido?

I once thought that may be a good idea. Of course, then I remembered that if I show up to the dojo with even a small amount of weight on, it may hurt a lot if I wear it the whole training session.

I think it would definitely help out during 'warm-ups'. Doing tenkan and '8-direction' movement with weights on may actually be a great idea! Thanks!
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#424628 - 01/31/10 06:42 AM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Unlimited Possibilities]
paul40 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
Ueshiba was 5ft. tall.90 pounds,

weight training for your personal health is fine but it has nothing to do with Aikido.Its also a bad idea to weight train before class,The art is smooth, relaxed, fluent movement.any tightness at all will counter act the flow.

best to train right after class,and forget your muscles during class.
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#424774 - 02/07/10 01:02 AM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: paul40]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Weight training is always good, just to tone up your muscles. If you don't like weights, do pushups and various types of muscle-tensing exercises.

Aerobics is also good, as is stretching. A healthy person is a better martial artist.

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#424780 - 02/07/10 09:53 AM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
It is nice to be strong. But if you are relying on or even using physical strength in Aikido, you are doing something incorrectly.

My current sensei keeps barking at me to relax.

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#424782 - 02/07/10 10:27 AM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: iaibear]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: iaibear
It is nice to be strong. But if you are relying on or even using physical strength in Aikido, you are doing something incorrectly.

My current sensei keeps barking at me to relax.


Kinda contradictory, to bark at someone to relax.

But I advocate weight training not because it's needed, but because it's a good way to maintain overall fitness. I don't train very intensively, but I like pumping iron, just to tone up.

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#424791 - 02/07/10 03:42 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
[quote=] Kinda contradictory, to bark at someone to relax. [/quote]

No contradiction at all.

Aikido is all about balance and misdirection, my balance vs. theirs. I am reasonably strong. I found it "easier" to grab and throw rather than evade and misdirect. I simply did not understand this "relax" thing. I could have been a little old lady with good technique and done better.


Edited by iaibear (02/07/10 03:44 PM)

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#424813 - 02/08/10 01:53 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: iaibear]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
This is an interesting issue for me. I was often told to relax in the few years I took of Aikido, but I found it hard to.

Systema was a revelation to me. I learnt in a very short time a whole series of relaxation exercises and techniques that literally relaxed the body. I also began to understand more of the relaxation/tension dynamic of the human body.

A lot of MA instructors forever tell students to relax, but they can't show them how to relax, which is where the problem lies. It is possible to teach the body to relax, as I found out in Systema.

I often wondered if the Ki exercises in Ki Aikido performed a similar function???
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#424814 - 02/08/10 02:14 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< I often wondered if the Ki exercises in Ki Aikido performed a similar function??? >>
Sorry, can't be of help there.
The only thing I know about Ki is what I have heard second or third hand. It usually involves trying to define just what Ki is. There seems to be a great diversity of opinions. From the FORCE to kindly thoughts and everything in between. By then I had stopped listening. FWIW None of the three dojo I have attended claimed to do Ki style.

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#427492 - 06/01/10 05:04 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
PEZalinski Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/01/10
Posts: 2
Aikido and weight training are not incompatible, any more than any other style of cross training might be considered, if the goal is to be more fit, or have more stamina and be able to protect your body better. It's called "conditioning."

This kind of cross training is not going to directly improve your execution of any given aikido techniques -- "Keiko, keiko, keiko" is the only thing that works, here. HOWEVER, cross training can improve your physical ability to take proper ukemi, and give you a little more strength and flexibility to "hang in there" so that you can absorb the nuances of the technique being executed. Just don't over do it, and pay close attention to your body's need for rest and recovery.

From personal experience: Improve your core muscles, and increase your stamina and endurance, and you will find it easier to concentrate on executing proper technique and proper ukemi.

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#428802 - 08/02/10 02:46 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: PEZalinski]
Doh Sensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/02/10
Posts: 5
Loc: Chicago
There are plenty of kettlebell exercises that can help make you pretty strong but also train your body as a unit. You need to use your arms, legs, core, everything in order to perform them correctly. I think this type of exercise is right up the aikidoka's alley.


Edited by Doh Sensei (08/02/10 02:46 PM)

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#428809 - 08/02/10 08:31 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: iaibear]
Kathryn Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: iaibear
<< I often wondered if the Ki exercises in Ki Aikido performed a similar function??? >>
Sorry, can't be of help there.
The only thing I know about Ki is what I have heard second or third hand. It usually involves trying to define just what Ki is. There seems to be a great diversity of opinions. From the FORCE to kindly thoughts and everything in between. By then I had stopped listening. FWIW None of the three dojo I have attended claimed to do Ki style.


My introduction to aikido came through doing chi exercises, and I was totally blown away the first time I slammed into my sensei's chi during training. It was like hitting a brick wall and bouncing off of it. I don't think it has anything to do with your own physicality, tho. I was physically tiny back then, but once I got properly grounded no one could pick me off the floor.

I strong support strength training, but not for the sake of doing aikido, just for overall body mechanics and health.

Kathryn
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Be nice, until it's time to not be nice.

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#429940 - 09/14/10 02:04 AM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Meant to reply to this one some time ago (thought I had)
Quote:

I often wondered if the Ki exercises in Ki Aikido performed a similar function???


I think they are supposed, but I've found the Systema ones to be a faster means of relaxing the body.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#429949 - 09/14/10 01:06 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Ames]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Nice to know you're alive Ames!


Edited by Prizewriter (09/14/10 01:07 PM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#429952 - 09/14/10 03:22 PM Re: Weight Training and Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Thanks man...

It's been a crazy busy year for me, so I have mostly just been lurking on the forum. Hopefully I'll be able to post more often.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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