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#422347 - 09/14/09 06:59 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"You may not have, but there are people here who have said in the past that karate is not an effective base for mma training and competition."

thoes people talk too much and don't train enough.
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#422349 - 09/14/09 07:40 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: student_of_life]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
actually what i really meant when i replied is that some people might think kata and such are "crap" and dont really hold a purpose to someone's training. But for others, it does hold some sort of value and I used Lyoto Machida as an example. From what I read/saw, he trains the traditional stuff with the family a number of times a week in addition to his MMA work. You don't like kata then fine but dont go calling it crap.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#422350 - 09/14/09 09:58 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
I don't know where the idea comes from that a Shotokan karate guy should only be using Shotokan. I go to a very traditional shotokan dojo in Japan and pretty much everyone is doing more than one martial art. One guy is even doing Shotokan, Kyokushin and a grappling art (not sure which). I wish I had the time to do so! The idea of training a number of arts is nothing new. Mas Oyama the Kyokushin founder was also a very high level Judoka.

As for kata, it's a bit like marching for a soldier. Why do soldiers march? It seems a bit pointless, but yet they continue to do it. I believe the reason is that it helps with discipline, morla, comradship etc. As with kata, it might seem pointless but there are reasons we do them, and they are effective in building a mental and physical base that you can build on. Obviously if a soldier is about to go to Iraq he's not going to spend all his time practicing marching, but he may be doing a bit...as an MMA fighter would be foolish to base his training on kata to prepare for an upcoming fight...that's not to say he wouldn't do them at all though.

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#422352 - 09/15/09 01:57 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: IExcalibui2
actually what i really meant when i replied is that some people might think kata and such are "crap" and dont really hold a purpose to someone's training. But for others, it does hold some sort of value and I used Lyoto Machida as an example. From what I read/saw, he trains the traditional stuff with the family a number of times a week in addition to his MMA work. You don't like kata then fine but dont go calling it crap.


Do it with the family? They have a Karate base so why not do something with the family that they call can do because obviously they cannot train at his level nor do MMA with him. But not for once do I attribute that to his level of fighting or the training that goes into his fighting.

I stand by that katas/patterns/forms are taught in traditional systems but time is better spent as a fighter learning to fight. Got that much extra time on your hands then lift some weights, work more with resistance but do something more productive with that time.

Why are so many people grasping because of hearing that Machida does katas? One guy doing them and more with the family and it is jumped over like he just saved Karate. GSP has a Karate background but nobody is jumping up and down in his corner, why, because he doesn't do katas?

I don't care what your base it because I've seen successful fighters with all types of different bases; but to truly succeed as a high level fighter then katas is not a tool. If Machida wants to keep touch with his family and his traditional arts, fine, but not for once is the katas indicative to his success. You want to point to his success then you only need to look at the man because it wouldn't matter what art he did he would be a success.
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#422354 - 09/15/09 02:18 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Wow...you know more about Machida than he does himself! He says in interviews that kata training has helped him get where he is, but we'll just ignore that eh? The reason he does them with his family is because errrr...his trainer is his dad. The reason people are excited is because we've heard for so long that katas are useless, but here we have the light heavyweight champion of UFC saying they're not. Of course it's crazy to say that katas alone made him the fighter he is today, I don't think anyone is claiming that, but as he himslef says, they have been a beneficial part of his training.

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#422355 - 09/15/09 05:20 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Gibberer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Soldiers march as it is traditional, and indeed, when war was a matter of attrition, and weaponry was different, you would march into battle. The structure of the troop allowed for continuous firing and reloading in repeating wave.

Times move on, and whilst the tradition remains for ceremony and a grounding in the history, you will never see a modern soldier march in to a real battle. EVER.

Taking your own analogy into the cage, I would be interested in anyone with the knowledge of the Kata in Shotokan, being able to point out an encounter in which Machida has used the specific movement progressions inherent in his Kata.

All I see is a guy who fights with different timing and distinctive, agile footwork. Neither timing nor free roaming agility seem to be addressed by kata, and certainly werent discussed in the teaching of any kata I learned.

As someone else pointed out, his in/out movement and timing resemble, if anything, point sparring, and again, I have never seen any of the calm, composed bullet time kata principles used in that either.

Thats not a criticism, Machida is a great fighter, but he is relying on gross motor function in the heat of a fight, and interacting whith a real oponent, not an imaginary one.

Take karate out of the theoretical, and into real use, and it looks like fighting.
That is why, when so many arts are trained across the UFC, when the fighters step in the cage, what they do seems remarkably similar. All arts are different paths to the same destination, and fighting looks like fighting.

That is why John said 'he trains MMA', and I agree with him.

I also agree that Karate has a rep. for being a bit cr4p in the public consciousness (remember Ross in Friends, Dwight in The Office, the list goes on), but I dont think Machida will be able to reverse that, unless it inspires the majority of karate schools in the western world to stop talking about dangerous skills and start teaching them ie. take the karate out of the kata, and let students work on using it in a controlled live environment.
Kind of difficult to listen to someone prattle on about their fighting skill or warriors code, when the only black eye they ever got was by mistake in a Bo demo - and you know that there are lots of 'those guys' out there in the Karate community, and its no wonder they open the art up for ridicule.
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#422365 - 09/15/09 04:18 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Cord
That is why John said 'he trains MMA', and I agree with him.


Okay, so we can then agree that all anyone does in MMA is MMA. Its not about Randy Couture's wresting, Kongo's kickboxing, or Maia's BJJ and we shouldn't hear references to those things in the context of MMA from those in the know. Even though the REAL fighters still do address where their "MMA" skills come from we shouldn't, right. The problem with this statement is that the level of fighting in MMA is not at its peak yet and there are still skills, fighting principles, and techniques to be gleamed from other arts. As long as you only deal in "MMA" you will be limiting yourself. And MMA is supposed to be the opposite of that. How many MMA schools only train a little bit of wrestling, BJJ, and boxing/kickboxing and most of their students are [censored] poor at all three. Yet claim superiority over all other arts because of what Rampage does in the cage? If Page ever faces Machida, I bet he won't just go looking for an MMA guy, but a karate man who can give him a good look to get ready for Machida. Or he can make the mistake that all of Machida's other opponents have and thing, its all just MMA. As long as I train "alive" I'll be all right.
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#422367 - 09/15/09 09:21 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
The point is though Cord that one of the first things a soldier learns is to march, and they spend a lot of time on it. As I said it isn't immediately apparent what the benefit of it is, but I am fairly certain that if it wasn't worthwhile then they wouldn't be doing it. So with kata...it isn't immediately apparent what the benefit is, and it is wrong to think that the set patterns should be applied in a real fight. Kata are practiced to drill footwork, timing, full body movement and mental focus. Application, at least initially, is secondary. Shotokan is kihon, kata and kumite.

Practice the stylised basic techniques in kihon and kata, and then apply them in controlled sparring, and then full contact sparring. I shouldn't really have to point out that a block or punch in free sparring doesn't look much like a block or punch in kumite...it's not supposed to! Obviously it's ludicrous to say that kata are useful without the sparring, and if that is what is being taught in western dojos then it would seem to me that they aren't teaching karate.

Regarding Machida, of course he's not training karate, he's traing to fight in an MMA ring. It is however undeniable that it is his Shotokan stand up that sets him appart. His footwork is Shotokan, his timing is Shotokan, his kicks are Shotokan and a lot of his takedowns are Shotokan. Of course he needs his BJJ skills to do well, and he is indeed very skilled in BJJ, but it's the same with GSP...it's his wrestling that is his stand out skill rather than his karate.

The point I am making is that Shotokan, and its training techniques, when applied properly, make for a very effective stand up technique, that like any system is incomplete. Without kata, it's not Shotokan, and without proper sparring it's not Shotokan either. Machida is proving this, and that's why proper Shotokan practioners are going...see, we told you it works!

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#422368 - 09/15/09 10:55 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Dereck

Do it with the family? They have a Karate base so why not do something with the family that they call can do because obviously they cannot train at his level nor do MMA with him. But not for once do I attribute that to his level of fighting or the training that goes into his fighting.

hmm, maybe because his father is his sensei? and his brother is one of the best Shotokan karateka in Brazil? and because he was born and raised in Shotokan?

also his father and brother play a big part in his MMA training as well. They help with his striking technique and strategy. So...maybe its just me, but I think his Karate plays a big part in his training.

Quote:
I stand by that katas/patterns/forms are taught in traditional systems but time is better spent as a fighter learning to fight. Got that much extra time on your hands then lift some weights, work more with resistance but do something more productive with that time.

like I said, I don't have beef with people who don't like doing kata. You don't see the benefit and thats cool, but other people do like kata. You don't know what their take is on it and you will never know. But to each their own man.

Quote:
Why are so many people grasping because of hearing that Machida does katas? One guy doing them and more with the family and it is jumped over like he just saved Karate. GSP has a Karate background but nobody is jumping up and down in his corner, why, because he doesn't do katas?

maybe because everyone says you should toss kata out the window if you become a fighter. yet here's a guy that does practice kata and can successfully defend himself in an MMA match. He doesnt spend all his time training MMA and he's cool with that because he finds some kind of value in kata.

Quote:
You want to point to his success then you only need to look at the man because it wouldn't matter what art he did he would be a success.

so why bash on kata? it doesnt matter if he practices it or not then because Machida, the man, is successful.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#422369 - 09/15/09 11:03 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: IExcalibui2]
Gibberer Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Gifu City, Japan
Just going back to the comparison between marching drills in the military and kata practice:

"Military Drill in the Army is formalized with utmost precision in the fearsomely bulky Drill Book. In the preamble to the Drill Book it is "confidently asserted that the foundation of discipline in battle is based on drill" and that this has been proven again and again. According to William Barlow, Robert Graves said there are "three types of troops: those with guts who could not drill; those good at drill but with no guts and those who had guts and could drill well. [...] These last fought best of all""

Taken from this article:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/military/drill.html

In no way would I say that kata practice is necessary, but to roundly dismiss the benefits it can bring if practiced properly is willfully ignorant.

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