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#422856 - 10/08/09 01:55 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Here is another view on Machida's Style and what gives him an edge.

http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/27899.html

Basicaly its saying its not to do with any particular style but his use and understanding of timing.Makes sense to me anyhow.
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#422857 - 10/08/09 02:58 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: matxtx]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Interesting take on it. It ties in with a post I made on a thread about how Japanese sword arts apparently influence Japanese Karate (Shotokan, Wado et al). A lot of these concepts influenced physical stances but also movement too. I made the comparison that many Japanese Karateka seem to favour a linear movement style in Karate. A similar movement style is seen in modern Kendo. Additionally, the concept of "One Cut" was translated in to old school Ippon Kumite. A Karateka had to fell their opponent with a single, powerful attack that had "visible impact". Usually this meant knocking them down/out!!!

The author of the above link stated these ideas come from Japanese sword arts, but it is important to remember that Japanse sword arts may have had a big influence on Japanese Karate, including Shotokan. So maybe Machida did learn these Japanese Sword ideas via Karate. In which case, it is his Karate that taught him the ideas mentioned in the article. Who knows?
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#422868 - 10/09/09 06:27 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Prizewriter]
matxtx Offline
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I dont think it matters where it comes from. The important thing is that he works on his timing.He could of had a fencing background, a boxing one..anything. If you dont work on understanding timing in the context of a fight,you wont get those skills. So Karate people can say all they like its karate yet they wont be able to do what he does without training timing. That belongs to no style.
Its the same if a boxer thinks he could do what Manny Pacquiao can just because he does boxing. If he doesnt work on timing he wont be able to.
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#422871 - 10/10/09 10:46 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
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Originally Posted By: matxtx
I dont think it matters where it comes from. The important thing is that he works on his timing.



That's a great point. Timing is one of the single most important factors in all of fighting, besides conditioning and fundamental technique.


Originally Posted By: matxtx

Its the same if a boxer thinks he could do what Manny Pacquiao can just because he does boxing. If he doesnt work on timing he wont be able to.



True, but I think that most boxers develop a decent amount of timing if they spar, because that's where real timing comes from. And most do spar. Pacquiao also has enormous talent and athleticism to go along with that timing.

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#422878 - 10/11/09 10:36 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: JKogas]
matxtx Offline
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Definitly. Timing has become intwined with what we would call sports fighting based martial arts or 'alive ' martial arts more than what would be called tradition martial arts.In MMA its timing in relation to every range. Not easy to get.
Its a small detail that I think comes from actualy fighting and people not taught by ex fighters or who dont fight or spar often might overlook its importance. I know I did untill I trained with fighters.

Personaly I dont think just sparring is enough and a seperate study should be done on timing,getting in and out of rythm,understanding half beats and quarter beats,anticipation etc. Manny and Machida and Anderson Silva im sure work on this and understand it better than others in their field.
Just sparring would get some skills in timing over time yet it could all be speeded up by concentrating on it specificaly.From I have learnt anyway.

All this is, of course ,on top of athletic ability and fundamental skills and movement. Also on top of that could be violent intent, the ability to take shots and fitness as things that go beyond any style or skill to make the best fighters.
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#422879 - 10/11/09 11:13 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Those are good points. Drilling as well is always needed. Specific movements need to be isolated and developed. However it's my opinion that without sparring, those movements won't come together in a dynamic situation.

Drilling is where we learn technique, sparring is where we learn to apply technique, IMO.

And you're right on, timing developed through aliveness has long been associated with a "sport" approach, which truthfully is a complete misnomer.

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#422904 - 10/13/09 04:47 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: JKogas]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Definitly sparring is needed as the end point or better still, a competative fight.

Drilling is needed to.
I do think that the word drill can differ depending on how we all describe what a drill is.

Where I train I have had it explanined to me that when learning a specific skill its better to take it out of the spar and concentrate on it. The drills we do are done at high intensitys,in fact higher than a random spar as we know whats coming and have worked on what to do. Now do it full on. An example would be learning to defend takedowns. The guy can try to take you down full on loonatic style in the drill just as much or more so than the spar.
The other reason to take it out of the spar is that the thing I might be wanting to get better at might not occur much or enough for me to learn what to do if I just randomly spar.Also I will only be as good as the person attacking me.
I guess the big problem with just randomly sparring,if there was one,would be how to go to high intensitys,like you would meet in a real violent encounter, without injury and being able to learn skills. Rather than learning skills in unrealistic conditions and intensitys.
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#422911 - 10/14/09 08:36 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: matxtx

Where I train I have had it explanined to me that when learning a specific skill its better to take it out of the spar and concentrate on it.



Exactly the way I think about it as well. Of course when you do think about it, that's the only way a drill makes any sense, otherwise any skill being developed wouldn't likely fit back into the "whole".


Originally Posted By: matxtx

The drills we do are done at high intensitys,in fact higher than a random spar as we know whats coming and have worked on what to do. Now do it full on.



I can appreciate that, but my own preference is to use variable intensity, moving from low to high and back, depending.



Originally Posted By: matxtx

The other reason to take it out of the spar is that the thing I might be wanting to get better at might not occur much or enough for me to learn what to do if I just randomly spar.



Exactly! Also when folks spar, they often tend to only "go with what they know", and to never isolate and drill, they won't tend to stretch-out and experiment with new things. As you probably realize, people don't tend to want to experiment during full-on sparring.


Originally Posted By: matxtx
.
I guess the big problem with just randomly sparring,if there was one,would be how to go to high intensitys,like you would meet in a real violent encounter, without injury and being able to learn skills. Rather than learning skills in unrealistic conditions and intensitys.



I think sparring at high intensity can be done safely with enough equipment. And even then it only needs to be briefly and periodically to be honest.

Timing being the primary thing we're trying to develop, doesn't require high intensity always.

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#423594 - 11/18/09 10:23 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Man, you guys really overthink this stuff. Machida likes Kata and practices it along with mma drills. Machida wins fights. Good for him. So do guys who don't practice kata. So what if it directly helps make him a better fighter or not. Doesn't seem to matter much. If you do it and can fight, congrats. If you don't do it and can fight, congrats. If you do it, can't fight, and don't care, congrats.
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