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#422770 - 10/05/09 08:19 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: medulanet
I don't see a static target with no head movement. Do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHL9Qx7_XA


Yes. Same as I see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aqOhgHpGFs

Dont get me wrong, lots of power, some great kicks too, but man you could have sent his jaw into next week at anypoint in that footage, not to mention that those caught with the kicks would have handled them better if they had movement from the torso, and a guard that put something between the guys foot and their head.
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#422774 - 10/05/09 09:50 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Originally Posted By: medulanet
So then why do you insist that there is a great number of pro fighters who are elite athletes?


Clearly, I'm not the only one that thinks so. That's why more and more pro's from other sports are looking to MMA training, since they must certainly regard MMA fighters as "elite" athletes. I'm done discussing this point. If you disagree, talk to Shaq and the NFL players who think otherwise. Your irrational hatred for MMA is coloring your perception.

Quote:
So by explaining an example of a technique, which you asked for, my definitions/explanations were divergent? Are you serious? One technique, for example, reinforced block has several different movements. As I said, each time one's hands cross an opponent's body can be seen as a method of attack. Get it?


Ok, what happened was you said "kata is more free", but did not explain or define at all. I made an educated guess as to what you meant. You then hemmed and hawed, impying that I had missed something, and offered a non-sensical of explanation "overhook and punch" as "one technique", when it's clearly two, as I had described in my post about applying "one technique at a time". At no point did you describe how it is more "free" than MMA training.

Got it?


Quote:
Yes, theory that is applied regularly in my sparring.


So you agree with me then? Why are you acting like I do not understand you?

Quote:
Imagine that, you have to think to learn to fight well. I guess that's just a karate thing. But seriously, the thought that your striking MUST look like boxing is an example of the unfree side of MMA.


I have never said that, so - again - you are arguing with me pointlessly. This is what I'm talking about.

Quote:
However, karate's application can take on many different forms and doesn't have to "look" like a specific thing because it is an individualized art. As far as the mental engineering if you are taught by someone who understands its application it doesn't. And then through good old fashioned hard training you define what your karate will be.


OK, fair enough.

Quote:
Okay, dispense with the name calling and acknowledge a view other than your own and we can begin.


OK, stop attacking me for arguments that I'm not making, acknowledge a view other than YOUR own, and we can begin.
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#422784 - 10/05/09 02:39 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Matt, I like MMA. But if that's what you get from this conversation, I don't know what to say. I am not arguing against MMA, but for karate. However, it seems for many that if you are for karate you are against MMA. So I guess we are done here.
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#422790 - 10/05/09 03:33 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:
However, it seems for many that if you are for karate you are against MMA.


I don't recall that at all. There are many MMA fighters that owe their beginnings to Karate, GSP for one. The argument has always been the effectiveness of kata training for a MMA fighter. And that the dreams and desires of the Karate community is jumping on Machida as he does katas. That by some slim chance they feel vindicated that all of that kata training was for not.

Nobody for once has said that kata training doesn't provide techniques and skillsets. Now these are fine for traditional training but we are not talking traditional training. We are talking about MMA fighting, and how effective it is in this realm. Kata has its place but no in MMA as there are better ways to train that will be more fruitful. That Machida holds ties to his katas is his choice but I and others have no doubt about Machida. He is a fighter, trains as a fighter and trains with methods becoming a fighter. That he decides to train kata on top of that doesn't mean kata is an effective method of training for MMA, it is just his choice. He could stop training kata and wouldn't miss a beat due to his MMA training.

That is the thing that people are forgetting. Machida does MMA training and he still trains Karate. That he finds time to do both is admirable. That he wants to keep ties to his Karate, shares it with his family, and if not mistaken also teaches Karate then more the power to him. But to fight MMA he does not need to continue to Karate train and if he stops doing MMA then he does not need to continue to train MMA. There are two separate entities. They most certainly can help each other but can function on their own as well. And in MMA training katas are not required.

That is all that is being said. Nothing against Karate, nothing against their katas, there is just a time and place for them and MMA is not the place.

Karate as a martial art has many techniques that have helped many fighters; Machida, GSP, Chuck Liddell, Sam Stout and many others. But Karata and MMA are two different things, as is any martial art on its own. Most martial arts on their own are limited but only when you combine all of the skill sets required to fight is it then MMA, hence "mixed" martial arts. Because we found out years ago that one disciplined got your butt handed to you. And when mixing martial arts there are many things stripped away to make room for practical and more useful methods of fighting; and kata most definitely is one of those things less practical.

But Machida uses them, is what we hear and that is being disputed. I don't know why that surprises anybody, there are many people training many things in the world that really have been proven useless, but people still do them. Take a look in the weight lifting world and you will see many people still doing old school lifting and getting results while science has proven more effect ways to train that have proven more effective. That is human nature, we hold on to things even if it is not good for us or even if there is better ways of doing it. And you will find in the MMA world that this is just as prevalent and why those fighters not advancing start reaching out to other trainers and schools to take them to the next level. Machida may be there one day as well.

And finally the success of Machida comes from Machida. No matter what martial art he trained in it is because of him that all is possible. He may use certain vehicles (i.e. martial arts) to get to where he is today but that he chose the blue over the red doesn't mean he wouldn't have got to the same destination.

I have watched many sparring matches of many martial arts and even those of the same martial art and what I found is they fight differently. Sure some of the same skill sets but their rhythm, timing, footwork and style stems from their own uniqueness and finding what works for them. So to say Machida's style is all Karate I don't buy that, that is Machida. Because if it weren't true then why does he fight differently then other Karate people? Why are not more of these same people who do MMA not having the success? Again, all comes down to the man training not the martial art.
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#422797 - 10/05/09 05:52 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
What you are saying is good Dereck, however, my response is not only for you, but also the guys here who when even karate and MMA are mentioned in conjunction all I get is, "Its not karate, its MMA." When JKogas said it his statement was not refuted, but backed up. But if I say its not BJJ its MMA all I am told is that BJJ is the FOUNDATION of MMA and my statement is erroneous. No one EVER said all Machida does is karate. We are simply pointing out that karate is a part of his success, kata and all. Now after this post there will be a host of others who will say that I am wrong. That because he trains Muay Thai his striking comes from that. And although his timing seems to resemble that from point fighting it is also found in boxing as well. And although he does kata it in no way helps his performance in MMA and if it does it is simply because he has a unique and uncommon ability. In fact, I will be told that to even say he trains karate for MMA (even though he states he does) is wrong because he simply trains MMA. Although in martial arts we should hope to learn from the past and progress beyond it, apparently because Fred Ettish and Ichihara got beat in early UFCs then their training methods were to blame because they were obviously the best representative of effective karate training of that day and any methods they used are ineffective. Had Lesnar been beaten by Mir there would have been a multitude of posts here explaining why lifting weights and trying to utilize strength in fighting is bad training and had Ichihara caught Royce with a lucky punch and knocked him out everyone would have said karate is the strongest martial art that man has ever created. I am starting to ramble, however, whether or not MattJ or JKogas like kata doesn't affect Machida's training or his winning, and it does not change those who continue to train it regardless of its uselessness.
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#422806 - 10/06/09 05:11 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: medulanet
What you are saying is good Dereck, however, my response is not only for you, but also the guys here who when even karate and MMA are mentioned in conjunction all I get is, "Its not karate, its MMA."


To enter the Octagon, Machida trains a Mix of Martial Arts, what is wrong with saying that? frown

Quote:
When JKogas said it his statement was not refuted, but backed up. But if I say its not BJJ its MMA all I am told is that BJJ is the FOUNDATION of MMA and my statement is erroneous.


Striking in MMA can, and does, come from many, or any background (savate, muay thai, karate, TKD, boxing, san shou, etc), but all ground work in all fighters, involves BJJ, even if it just for wrestlers, Sombo, and judoka to have a working defence for techniques particular to BJJ, so BJJ gets recognised as a cornerstone skillset for MMA.

It is no different than the fact that whilst K1 is open to all striking arts, and has a number of high profile boxers and Muay Thai fighters, it is still a karate competition.

Quote:
No one EVER said all Machida does is karate. We are simply pointing out that karate is a part of his success, kata and all.


So you agree 'he trains MMA' . Was that so difficult? wink

Quote:
Now after this post there will be a host of others who will say that I am wrong. That because he trains Muay Thai his striking comes from that.


Seeing as you just agreed with the rest of us, there is no contradiction, but if he trains MT, then he must use it. If you say no, then why cant we say he doesnt use kata even though he trains it?

Quote:
And although his timing seems to resemble that from point fighting it is also found in boxing as well. And although he does kata it in no way helps his performance in MMA and if it does it is simply because he has a unique and uncommon ability.


Now you're getting it smile

Quote:
In fact, I will be told that to even say he trains karate for MMA (even though he states he does) is wrong because he simply trains MMA.


But you just agreed with that?

Quote:
Although in martial arts we should hope to learn from the past and progress beyond it, apparently because Fred Ettish and Ichihara got beat in early UFCs then their training methods were to blame because they were obviously the best representative of effective karate training of that day and any methods they used are ineffective.


Well, Mr Ettish went away from a terrible beating, having looked like he was trying to directly apply a kata to a human being, and had the honesty to rethink, get involved with the Milletich MMA camp, and broaden his training methods. He then came back and won.

Ichihara came in to the UFC with a killer rep (was he 5th or 6th dan? can't remember), and a rep from karate tournaments. Fair play to him, he looked strong on his feet, then it all went wrong quickly on the ground, proving you need more than stand up to fight in the octagon, meaning that Machida must train a mix of martial arts to succeed.

Quote:
Had Lesnar been beaten by Mir there would have been a multitude of posts here explaining why lifting weights and trying to utilize strength in fighting is bad training


Mir did beat Lesnar. Those posts were made. Lesnar went away and got more experience defending against Mir's BJJ, and got more skilled outside of his wrestling foundation, and cleaned house.

Quote:
and had Ichihara caught Royce with a lucky punch and knocked him out everyone would have said karate is the strongest martial art that man has ever created.


Ouch, do you think Ichihara needed luck, even with his karate credentials. That is far harsher than anyone on here has been on this thread towards karate.

Quote:
I am starting to ramble, however, whether or not MattJ or JKogas like kata doesn't affect Machida's training or his winning, and it does not change those who continue to train it regardless of its uselessness.


If every karateka trained like Machida in a Mix of Martial Arts,and with proper conditioning and effective sparring then there would be more of them in the octagon.

As it is, there are more Karateka Kata trophy holders than house-cleaners in open fight-sports.

What that says about kata I leave to others to decide for themselves
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http://cord.mybrute.com

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#422807 - 10/06/09 05:48 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Cord
If every karateka trained like Machida in a Mix of Martial Arts,and with proper conditioning and effective sparring then there would be more of them in the octagon.

As it is, there are more Karateka Kata trophy holders than house-cleaners in open fight-sports.

What that says about kata I leave to others to decide for themselves


That's just it Cord, historically, karate men in okinawa have ALWAYS done this. From training in China to practicing the indigenous grappling methods of okinawa. Karate men NOT doing this is a relatively modern thing (the past 60 or 70 years). But no one is saying that the route you mention is not an optimal one. It still goes back to the usage of kata. Which some people find useful and others don't. I'm okay with the fact that some people don't find it useful. It actually seems that some people, however, have a problem with people that do find kata useful. And no matter what the people who continue to use it as a training method to improve their overall ability as a fighter say, do, or accomplish there will always be those exceptionally brilliant people who know better than the people who are actually using these methods. Funny how that works.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#422808 - 10/06/09 06:30 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: medulanet
That's just it Cord, historically, karate men in okinawa have ALWAYS done this. From training in China to practicing the indigenous grappling methods of okinawa. Karate men NOT doing this is a relatively modern thing (the past 60 or 70 years).


But that is literally a lifetime ago, and brings me back to a previous loop in our discussion regarding the quality of karate widely available to people today. If the karate of today has lost the tradition of grappling and being open to training in other influences, and only kept the tradition of kata, then its fair to say that karate is not the fighting tool it once was, as in its present state, it is insular, incomplete and stagnant.
That is what I conclude from your post BTW - I had no idea about okinawan wrestling. I knew Goju had strong links with chinese arts, but didnt know that travelling to learn chinese skills was commonplace either.

If Machida is succeeding by returning to a tradition of Karate lost for nearly a century, then he is more of a critic of modern karate than any kata-sceptic on this thread.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#422810 - 10/06/09 09:19 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Excellent posts, Cord. Exactly.

Originally Posted By: medulanet
But if I say its not BJJ its MMA all I am told is that BJJ is the FOUNDATION of MMA and my statement is erroneous.


Because it is. Please read my earlier posts. BJJ is absolutely pervasive in MMA, unlike any other art. Modern MMA is (not was) built off of BJJ.

Quote:
No one EVER said all Machida does is karate. We are simply pointing out that karate is a part of his success, kata and all.


The vast majority of "us" have agreed that karate has helped Machida, although the kata idea is questionable.

Quote:
Now after this post there will be a host of others who will say that I am wrong. That because he trains Muay Thai his striking comes from that. And although his timing seems to resemble that from point fighting it is also found in boxing as well. And although he does kata it in no way helps his performance in MMA and if it does it is simply because he has a unique and uncommon ability. In fact, I will be told that to even say he trains karate for MMA (even though he states he does) is wrong because he simply trains MMA.


Well, he does train MMA, utilizing his karate in that context. The problem here is that people from both ends want to minimize the other - hardcore karate people want to think that it's the Shotokan - and nothing else - that helps Machida. The hardcore MMA people won't recognize the Shotokan as having helped at all, since that is only part of what Machida trains. The truth is somewhere in between those extremes.

Quote:
Although in martial arts we should hope to learn from the past and progress beyond it, apparently because Fred Ettish and Ichihara got beat in early UFCs then their training methods were to blame because they were obviously the best representative of effective karate training of that day and any methods they used are ineffective.


Well, their methods were indisputably ineffective. But that's not a dig solely at TMA's. My AKK got destroyed, even thought one of the guys was trained and cornered by one of the highest ranking AKK black belts (Frank Trejo). Ron Van Clief got destroyed, with arguably the highest karate credentials of anyone, AND coming into the octagon in fantastic condition. This proved 2 very important things that were NOT being done routinely at most martial arts schools:

* You must be able to take repeated, hard hits

* You must be able continue to fight effectively on the ground

Quote:
Had Lesnar been beaten by Mir there would have been a multitude of posts here explaining why lifting weights and trying to utilize strength in fighting is bad training


Yes, there were some. And those people are (IMHO) just as bizarrely deluded as those that claim that kata has any functional benefit to fighting skill. Anyone with a brain should know that strength and conditioning are very important.

Quote:
and had Ichihara caught Royce with a lucky punch and knocked him out everyone would have said karate is the strongest martial art that man has ever created.


Only the softest minded people would say that after one instance of that happening. The Gracies already had a long and deep reputation for submitting strikers. It would have taken repeated wins by KO to change the rep at that point.

Quote:
I am starting to ramble, however, whether or not MattJ or JKogas like kata doesn't affect Machida's training or his winning, and it does not change those who continue to train it regardless of its uselessness.


Agreed.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#422850 - 10/08/09 07:37 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
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