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#422725 - 10/03/09 09:26 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
And how many NFL guys have gone into pro-wrestling? I guess that proves that pro-wrestling is more "elite" skillwise than football, huh? Or maybe......It's a different skillset. But look how many NFL guys are starting to turn to MMA-style training for conditioning. I wonder what that means!


It means that MMA training is a good means of improving overall athleticism.

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I am referring to a base level of athleticism, which can be measure independent of one's participation in MMA. Now the question is can that individual use it in MMA.


And the answer is: not always, which makes that line of reasoning irrelevant, which is my point. Yeah, someone may have an awesome 40 yard dash, or a fantastic vertical leap. But in the immortal words of Chris Rock, "Can you kick MY a$$?!"


Uh, that's what the last line in my statement "Now the question is can that individual use it in MMA." is referring to.

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Quote:
That's if your only using one technique/hand at a time. I can overhook your arm with one arm and hit you with the other. That is one technique used to do two things.


Here we go with the goofy semantics again. An overhook and a punch are two different techniques, Marcel. Count them for yourself. But that's not even what you meant initially and you know it. You meant that a block could be a punch or a grab, etc ("freedom"). This type of intellectual dishonesty is really beneath you. I am trying to have an honest debate.


And that is the reason why we CAN'T ever have a real debate on these issues. You believe you understand what my karate and my understanding of karate is all about, but this statement shows you have no clue. You are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty because you realized you did not understand my post on the subject. In the immortal words of ODB...wait, that's not appropriate. I digress. Matt, there ARE others on this planet who have a view of karate you may not have been exposed to. Just a thought.
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#422731 - 10/04/09 04:37 AM Re: Machidausing karate in MMA [Re: Dereck]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Dereck

This video looks no different then the what was trained in Taekwondo. AND I suspect is taught in many other martial arts; nothing really new here. Only difference is Machida is doing it. grin


I'm not really discussing the origin of something this simple

the point is that something like this is practiced in forms/kata, so that movement like this can be practiced while you are training by yourself. Also like I said forms and kata are used more for foundational purposes, imo. You learn these basic techniques and movements. After you learn them, its off to do some training with more resistance. Maybe a drill involving you practicing this movement against an advancing partner? You have to learn to walk before you can run.

I'm sure Machida doesn't need to practice kata all that much since he seems to have gotten as much info as he wanted out of the katas (the striking and moving). He has the basics down, so he can go off to do bigger things.
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#422734 - 10/04/09 05:45 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Thanks for responding to my post Medulanet, it really makes the effort of answering you worthwhile smirk

On a different tack, what I would be very interested in, would be an indepth documentary on the Machida Family's interperatation of Karate, specificaly their whole training and development strategy and their grading criteria.

Just like the Gracie family did not re-invent the wheel, merely made it roll better (se what I did there? smile ), it is perfectly possible, that the Machida family have taken a different approach to Karate. After all, Lyoto does say on his resume that he trains 'Machida Karate', not Shotokan, so it is reasonable to presume that the family believe there is enough of a difference between what they do, and what I can do in my local karate clubs, to give it its own identity.
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#422741 - 10/04/09 09:25 AM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
It means that MMA training is a good means of improving overall athleticism.


Dude.....you're so close. If elite athletes from other sports are looking to MMA training to improve their conditioning, then MMA fighters would have to be considered.......oh hell. I'll let you figure it out. Perhaps A pro NHL goaltender's opinion doesn't matter:

http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/10/08/meet-the-nhls-biggest-mma-fan-boston-bruins-goalie-tim-thomas/

"It seems like a lot of pro athletes have been talking about getting involved with MMA lately. Would you ever consider fighting when your career is finished?

I don't think so. If I would have started actually training when I was younger, possibly. But I'm 35 years old, and unless they open up a 40-to-50 year old MMA category, then I don't think I would be able to take those young bucks on. But you know, I would like to do the training. I thought about doing it in the summer, because as far as conditioning goes, those guys must be some of the best all-around conditioned athletes on the planet, but I haven't done it because of the chance of injury while training is too high."


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Uh, that's what the last line in my statement "Now the question is can that individual use it in MMA." is referring to.


Uh, well it still makes your point irrelevant, no matter how many times you repeat it.

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And that is the reason why we CAN'T ever have a real debate on these issues. You believe you understand what my karate and my understanding of karate is all about, but this statement shows you have no clue.


Actually, you may be right, but not for the reasons that you profess. I don't understand your points because you keep shifting them, or refusing to explain them clearly.

Quote:
You are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty because you realized you did not understand my post on the subject.


Actually, I understood both of your divergent posts perfectly. The first one ("freedom") was very vague, so you would force me to try to crystalize your idea, which I believe I did correctly. In the second one ("overhook"), you - now horrified that I did, in fact, exactly grasp what you meant - shifted the definition to something else, which didn't even make sense by your own definition ("one technique").

Quote:
In the immortal words of ODB...wait, that's not appropriate. I digress. Matt, there ARE others on this planet who have a view of karate you may not have been exposed to. Just a thought.


That's possible - but you are not one of them. Tell you what. Since you think I misinterpreted your "freedom" post, why don't you explain - clearly and exactly - what you meant, since it apparently wasn't anything about how kata techniques can have more than one theoretical application. Because if all you're saying is that you can do two things with two hands, that is no more freedom than what any MMA fighter can do. Kata are pre-arranged, so by definition, they aren't really "free" in any physical sense. One could be free to interpret the theoretical applications, but you are hinting that is not what you meant. But if it's not physical, and it's not theoretical, then you will have to explain what it is you mean.

The fair readers of FA.com can decide how badly I misinterpreted what you wrote - and why. wink
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#422752 - 10/04/09 01:01 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
[quote=medulanet]Dude.....you're so close. If elite athletes from other sports are looking to MMA training to improve their conditioning, then MMA fighters would have to be considered.......oh hell. I'll let you figure it out.


There are a lot of training regimens that are excellent. However, not everyone that does them are elite athletes.

Quote:
Actually, you may be right, but not for the reasons that you profess. I don't understand your points because you keep shifting them, or refusing to explain them clearly.


Quote exactly where I am "shifting my points."

Quote:
Actually, I understood both of your divergent posts perfectly. The first one ("freedom") was very vague, so you would force me to try to crystalize your idea, which I believe I did correctly. In the second one ("overhook"), you - now horrified that I did, in fact, exactly grasp what you meant - shifted the definition to something else, which didn't even make sense by your own definition ("one technique").


Exactly Matt, you understand my karate completely.

Quote:
That's possible - but you are not one of them. Tell you what. Since you think I misinterpreted your "freedom" post, why don't you explain - clearly and exactly - what you meant, since it apparently wasn't anything about how kata techniques can have more than one theoretical application. Because if all you're saying is that you can do two things with two hands, that is no more freedom than what any MMA fighter can do. Kata are pre-arranged, so by definition, they aren't really "free" in any physical sense. One could be free to interpret the theoretical applications, but you are hinting that is not what you meant. But if it's not physical, and it's not theoretical, then you will have to explain what it is you mean.

The fair readers of FA.com can decide how badly I misinterpreted what you wrote - and why. wink


Okay, in kata one technique can be used for different things such as joint locking, defending, attacking. And it can be used to deal with a variety of attacks. So, rather than teaching your opponent does this and you do that for several different situations you can teach a single technique to be applied in several different situations. In addition, in karate the idea of simultaneous attack is prevalent and a single "technique" seen in kata can actually be 2,3,4,etc. "techniques." In karate everytime your hands cross your opponent's body you are attacking. How these are used are limited by the understanding and ability of the practitioner. However, when I remove these techniques from the context of "kata" and assign applications to them then the mnemonic is severely altered. The way I apply my techniques then become the my teacher applies his, and this may or may not be the optimal way for me to fight depending on my own individual traits. In addition, the context of application and fighting principles changes based on the underlying fighting principle of a specific kata and even a specific segment of techniques from a kata. However, those applications, once the basic principles are fully developed, are individualized and based on the fighting style of an individual and not the classical usage.

However, you should really watch who you are accusing of things like intellectual dishonesty. There are ways to make your points without attempts to assassinate another's character. It seems you are trying to shift attention from this, but now I am starting to understand how you get down.
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#422759 - 10/04/09 06:20 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
OK, if I take it on faith, that from your experience, kata is a direct fighting tool, a sort of 'wikipedia' of technique that can be of use in any and all situations you may face, then may I ask if you see the lack of head/body movement that predominates Kata, as being a healthy thing to ingrain in someone training to encounter fists aiming at what is largely a static target?
Seeing as how the evidence shows the number of fighters with the reflexes to play the 'chin out and safe' tactic is so few that they tend to stick in the mind (Cassius Clay, Naseem Hamed, Mayweather and a few others),and also the fact that they all had fantastic mobility from the waist, would you say that teaching a chin up, static head as the 'go to' tactic is realistic for the other 99.8% of us who do not have the genetic tools to make it work, no matter what our training?
Would you acknowledge that in footage of kumite from point sparring to full contact kyokushin, that this presents itself as a weakness in many who fight?
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#422764 - 10/04/09 07:53 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:
Soon every UFC light heavyweight will need to know traditional karate if they hope to hold the title in the next couple of years.


I hope that this is a joke or I took this out of context.

As I recall when the UFC started up Karate guys, who I'm sure knew a lot of katas, were getting their a$$'s handed to them by street fighters and especially by BJJ guys. In fact the Gracies have a long list of Karate guys they put to shame. So Karate, especially traditional Karate, was found INADEQUATE as a fighting art. And I dare say that traditional Karate hasn't changed much since those days. And not just to point fingers at Karate, other martials arts were finding the same thing. And as we know BJJ guys were starting to be beat as they limited themselves like Karate guys did; thinking their one art was enough. Hence fighters were learning all facets of the game in order to be viable in the ring/octagon. Now martial arts like Karate are incorporating more then just the stand-up to fill their "holes", just like my TKD did with BJJ. No one art on its own is enough, not in the ring.

Machida will be beat, all fighters do. Machida will never be a GSP or Silva, fighters that change their fighting tactics frequently. Just like Chuck Liddell had a run with eventually guys figuring out his style, so to will Machida but I doubt he will have as long as a run.

Already we know Silva could beat him but as they are friends Silva won't go for the LHW belt; so Machida has already dodged one bullet. I hope Machida continues to grow as a MMA fighter and holds the belt longer then the past LHW champions. Sadly if he loses the Karate community will blame MMA and say he trained too much MMA and not enough Karate and that was his downfall, when in fact it may be the latter.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#422765 - 10/04/09 09:01 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: Cord]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I don't see a static target with no head movement. Do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHL9Qx7_XA
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Dulaney Dojo

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#422766 - 10/04/09 09:09 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: medulanet
There are a lot of training regimens that are excellent. However, not everyone that does them are elite athletes.


Not all elite athletes can fight. Different skillset.

Quote:
Quote exactly where I am "shifting my points."


Time for some glasses, bro. I already noted where you did here:

Quote:
Actually, I understood both of your divergent posts perfectly. The first one ("freedom") was very vague, so you would force me to try to crystalize your idea, which I believe I did correctly. In the second one ("overhook"), you - now horrified that I did, in fact, exactly grasp what you meant - shifted the definition to something else, which didn't even make sense by your own definition ("one technique").


Now back to your stuff:

Quote:
Okay, in kata one technique can be used for different things such as joint locking, defending, attacking. And it can be used to deal with a variety of attacks. So, rather than teaching your opponent does this and you do that for several different situations you can teach a single technique to be applied in several different situations. In addition, in karate the idea of simultaneous attack is prevalent and a single "technique" seen in kata can actually be 2,3,4,etc. "techniques." In karate everytime your hands cross your opponent's body you are attacking. How these are used are limited by the understanding and ability of the practitioner.


This sure sounds like my description earlier of "more theoretical applications".

Quote:
However, when I remove these techniques from the context of "kata" and assign applications to them then the mnemonic is severely altered. The way I apply my techniques then become the my teacher applies his, and this may or may not be the optimal way for me to fight depending on my own individual traits. In addition, the context of application and fighting principles changes based on the underlying fighting principle of a specific kata and even a specific segment of techniques from a kata. However, those applications, once the basic principles are fully developed, are individualized and based on the fighting style of an individual and not the classical usage.


Which begs the question of why use kata in the first place, since the techniques as shown in kata will require deconstruction or other mental engineering. And you still haven't explained how this is any "free-er" than what MMA folk do.

Quote:
However, you should really watch who you are accusing of things like intellectual dishonesty. There are ways to make your points without attempts to assassinate another's character. It seems you are trying to shift attention from this, but now I am starting to understand how you get down.


I an not trying to "character assassinate" you, or anyone else. But I will point out flaws in your logic and your debate style (passive-aggression and obfuscation) as I see fit. I am ready for an honest debate any time you are.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#422767 - 10/04/09 09:32 PM Re: Vitor Belfort using karate in MMA [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Not all elite athletes can fight. Different skillset.


So then why do you insist that there is a great number of pro fighters who are elite athletes?

Quote:
Quote:
Actually, I understood both of your divergent posts perfectly. The first one ("freedom") was very vague, so you would force me to try to crystalize your idea, which I believe I did correctly. In the second one ("overhook"), you - now horrified that I did, in fact, exactly grasp what you meant - shifted the definition to something else, which didn't even make sense by your own definition ("one technique").


Now back to your stuff:


So by explaining an example of a technique, which you asked for, my definitions/explanations were divergent? Are you serious? One technique, for example, reinforced block has several different movements. As I said, each time one's hands cross an opponent's body can be seen as a method of attack. Get it?


Quote:
This sure sounds like my description earlier of "more theoretical applications".


Yes, theory that is applied regularly in my sparring.

Quote:
Which begs the question of why use kata in the first place, since the techniques as shown in kata will require deconstruction or other mental engineering. And you still haven't explained how this is any "free-er" than what MMA folk do.


Imagine that, you have to think to learn to fight well. I guess that's just a karate thing. But seriously, the thought that your striking MUST look like boxing is an example of the unfree side of MMA. However, karate's application can take on many different forms and doesn't have to "look" like a specific thing because it is an individualized art. As far as the mental engineering if you are taught by someone who understands its application it doesn't. And then through good old fashioned hard training you define what your karate will be.

Quote:
I an not trying to "character assassinate" you, or anyone else. But I will point out flaws in your logic and your debate style (passive-aggression and obfuscation) as I see fit. I am ready for an honest debate any time you are.


Okay, dispense with the name calling and acknowledge a view other than your own and we can begin.
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