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#420698 - 07/08/09 11:41 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Good points guys. Going unarmed against someone armed with either knife or firearm, especially in that weapon's preferred range... is an incredibly difficult task. While we can certainly pull up some anecdotal evidence of someone kicking a knife out of someone's hand or wrestling a gun away from a mugger, etc, I think that most intelligent people realize that the chance of injury is high, even against an unskilled attacker.

Karl Tanswell teaches a program called STAB that emphasizes an athletically provable control postion (the 2 on 1). He will be the first to tell you however, (and this is part of his presentation) that "there is NO DISTANCE WORK IN S.T.A.B". Fighting over a knife when you can escape is silly or as Karl says "is for retards". The STAB program is based upon (and more knife programs should pay attention to this...) the idea that most of the knife attack scenarios that mandate an empty hand response are scenarios in which you have already been cut, even if you dont know it yet.

A real knife attack is "an ambush". If you can see it coming, you probably have other options than trying to wrestle for a knife.

I do question however, the training objective of having officers try to close a 4 meter distance to try to take a paint gun (Sims, Airsoft, whatever). I think that lesson would be over pretty quickly, especially whn the role players attempt to "game" the exercise.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/08/09 11:43 PM)
_________________________
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#420700 - 07/09/09 12:05 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Fletch1]
ThunderinJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 33
Sounds like their training those officers to take a bullet. And a knife attack should be an ambush, it is the most effective approach. I also know a guy in Panama that could "cut up" numerous attackers, and even if you had a gun don't get within arms reach. I'd rather not defend a knife attack, I would run if I could. If forced I like push kicks, wrist strikes, throat, eyes, collar bone, if it comes down to wrist control I hope he can take a punch. I try to keep the distance if my enemy closes the gap with the blade and we go down I would isolate the arm. A gun would have to be in my immediate area, as in at my head. Otherwise take cover.

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#421749 - 08/20/09 04:56 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: ThunderinJoe]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Working some unarmed vs. knife is always a plus, you never know when that situation could come up, and it's good to have some skills that will at least increase the possibility of coming out alive or hopefully even fully intact (but getting sliced up at least a little is a given). The STAB program looks excellent, although personally I'd rather stay back and move laterally, taking potshots with lead leg kicks to the shins/knees till I can either get away, knock or even the odds. I'd say what's more important is learning to pay attention to your surroundings at all times, and potential ways of getting away real quick and superior weapons of opportunity (a chair for instance, a broken pool cue, even a stick and a thick jacket wrapped over your arm as soemthing of a shield) always keeping in the back of your mind ways of stacking the odds in your favor any way you can. That's why soldiers spend so little tiem on unarmed fighting, it's more important to be good with your weapons, weapons of opportunity, and using your surroundings/buddies, or whatever. Why work with the most disadvantaged situation when you don't have to? Scenario training is great for that sort of thing. Guns arent the only equalizer.
Including distraction measures in these unarmed vs. knife programs would be especially helpful I would think. Just a few thoughts.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#421756 - 08/20/09 07:33 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Fletch is right on. I don't think many will argue that if you can stay back and move laterally and then RUN, that's great! I don't think anyone wants to stick around and fight a guy with knife.

The point is that you will get hit by a knife often before you know it with the attack being a "berserking" type of assault. You have to then stop the immediate assault on you first before deciding to do something else. Oddly enough, just deciding to try and create space in this situation often ends up badly (falling down, etc) unless you have dealt first with the immediate problem. Try it and see for yourself with your training partner providing realistic energy and pressure.

Remember, our opponent can move forward faster than we can backward. Given that he is going to be thrusting violently (sewing machine type of motion), often before you will know what's going on, we simply don't have the time to finesse a "crazed chimp with a shank". Lets face it, a bad guy with a knife who wants to hurt you isn't going to let you know he's coming 30 yards away. He will probably try and slip in close to you behind an "innocent" approach.

If you can't run, it may also mean that you can't create space and angle either. Also, not being able to run might mean that you have someone there to protect. In that sense, creating space means keeping your opponent free and allowing him to berserk other people.

I think that one of the problems that "martial artists" have with this situation, is the thought that the knifer will come in and stop at a certain distance and then slash the knife around at you. Most people who've been assaulted will tell you that this isn't the case at all. A man with a knife who is intent on killing you (not just brandishing) will CLOSE the distance with you (into the clinch), then grab and stab, not letting you get away.

This isn't a good situation regardless. The odds aren't in anyone's favor. However gaining control of the weapon arm and opponent after you've been hit (assuming you'll be hit before you are aware of it) keeps the repeated hits from happening.

The odds of surviving one stab or so are pretty good. It's those multiple stabs that get you.


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#421761 - 08/20/09 11:58 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
quatin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 6
Quote:
Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.


So if the officer charged you from further away you would hit him less? Did you get the backwards?

Also, perhaps you should try again, but with a bit of firearm training (even looking at some youtube videos on some strategy). I'm not discounting your results, but just suggesting a more thorough test. Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) has an excellent tutorial about drawing, point shooting and lateral movement when facing an opponent charging at you from close distance.

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#421867 - 08/25/09 08:41 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

This is off track a bit...

AND IS ONLY MY HUMBLE OPINION, please I am not a LEO

FOR LADIES AND MEN...If caught off guard by a knife or gun wielding attacker who demands you to enter your vehicle and come with the or the will shoot or stab you....better to be shot or stabbed in a parking lot or drive than go to a nameless horror they have awaiting you, if its your vehicle...throw the keys one way and run the other.

OK--Everyone who thinks I'm an idiot go ahead and shred me:)

Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#421912 - 08/27/09 11:59 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think I'm following you Karl. It's definitely better to stand and fight where you are then to be taken to another location. That much is true.

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#421923 - 08/27/09 03:09 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hey JKogas,

Thanks, its kinda up there with keys ready , strong hand on conceal carry weapon...so many ladies keep loaded right to carry gun in in their ZIPPED purse...what good is that...a Prada Club in colors??

Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#421976 - 08/29/09 08:07 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi Me, again...
are my posts so confusion or dull that....well seems like I post or respond and few follow up...makes a bloke feel...lonely, nah, like maybe I have nothing worth saying...

TO POINT:

Yeah not smart against gun....but if men and woman started carrying OC w/uv perp ID at least against knife and or multiple attackers odds of escape increase.

on key chain or hip accesses holder there are new dispensers which expel multiple blasts at ( not a quote, just one of my Alzheimer moment things) at approx 120-180-MPH enough to negate wind drift or blow back, increases distance of discharge effectiveness.

I am NOT a LEO, but do recommended buying 1-3 (some are now available w/ pre filled recharge canisters/

1.) Practice multiple discharges till comfortable with range/ spread and influence of windage. If you got s set on you allow some to drift into your eyes and nose and mouth (JUST MY OPINION ONLY, ASTHMATICS DO NOT DO THIS< but you already got the idea)

2.) If the mechanism purchased involves more than point and spray, watch TV and practice release safety, place finger on discharge, point (Uhhhhh....dont spray in home).

3.) If possible discharge on attacker, DO NOT TRY MORE, run to populated area call 911, describe attacker and wait.

4.)discharging OC is as discharging a weapon, threat must be present, gotta pass a polygraph (Tac in shoe or anal sphincter constriction are now easy for trained polygraph tech to read, dont expect to fool one). Be prepared for LEO detainment if, as probable, no witnesses....but better safe than knifed.

Karl. Lets all be safe out there, ok. (what tv show that from???)
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#422137 - 09/05/09 08:56 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Sounds good.
You are saying what Peyton Quinn has been saying for years.

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