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#422131 - 09/04/09 05:50 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
With respect Dereck, I don't think Earl is doing that. He is merely pointing out an article that he wrote that made a certain argument, some of which I agree with. It is probably easier for him than writing a new article from scratch, just for us!

It is interesting for me to note that the article was written in 1989, long before mma had become popular in mainstream culture. I wonder if it would be too much to ask Earl if and how his ideas have been changed since the writing of that article, and whether mma has played any role in that.

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#422132 - 09/04/09 06:14 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Supremor, I think that is an excellent idea. I must say, you are very intelligent in many of your responses and how you handle things. Props.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#422133 - 09/04/09 09:20 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
pffff, I'm a politics student haha!

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#422135 - 09/05/09 06:58 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Supremor]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: Supremor
With respect Dereck, I don't think Earl is doing that. He is merely pointing out an article that he wrote that made a certain argument, some of which I agree with. It is probably easier for him than writing a new article from scratch, just for us!

It is interesting for me to note that the article was written in 1989, long before mma had become popular in mainstream culture. I wonder if it would be too much to ask Earl if and how his ideas have been changed since the writing of that article, and whether mma has played any role in that.


FWIW I don't know if any of the ideas in the 1989 article have changed, but they have certainly expanded. This had little to do with MMA and more to do with the current hot topic of "Real Applications" for patterns. I had an article published in Totaly TKD this year which addressed this in part.

The basic theme is this. Dilman would often say patterns teach us "Angle and Drection" . I asked what the difference was between angle and direction? He said it was basicaly the same thing. General Choi's text references distance and direction.
Also, as Gneral Choi would teach he would review the purpose of the move and go thru a scenario where a hypothetical student said the purpose was different than the text. The resolution as to what the purpose was depended on if the hypothetical studen't idea made sense.

So, as I sstated in the article, my thought is that the stated application is there to help students learn distance, direction, angle of applicaton, Angle and level of attack. Generating poswer in a practicaly efficient and table manner, and from my RMCAT experience, using exagerated motions to overcome adrenal stress truncation effects which mke movements smaller and less effective.

With these ideas in mind, how th motion is used, whether it be a "Block" , "Attack" or nay number of things is limited only by pracical considerations concerning how the motion can be applied.

So, in conclusion, the focus should initialy be on stated applications to learn angles, levels, distance and direction. Learning so called Real, or alternate applications will help broaden the focus to where I now believe it should be. Generating power with practical efficiency in a well balanced motion so that it can be applied in an inumerable number of applications limited only by realistic considerations.

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#422147 - 09/06/09 09:44 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: EarlWeiss]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I would just like to see Taekwondo use another way to grade people other than patterns. If people want to do them fair enough I just dont think they give any indication of how a person can deal with another who attacks them violently or forces them to fight back.
_________________________
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#422163 - 09/07/09 05:12 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: Dereck
No disrespect intended, but because one can publish an article in the TKD Times doesn't mean it is correct; that is the opinion of the writer only. If I were to get an article published in MMA Magazine and then link it here would he make the argument change? No it wouldn't. So that there is an article in the TKD Times, a magazine solely for promoting TKD, I don't really hold that in too high of regard especially with all that TKD is today.


Well certainly the author:) Of course there are the 8 other noteables (Among them, Chuck Norris, Funakoshi, General Choi Hong Hi, Robert Trias, John Funk, Floyd Burk. ) referred to in the article as well.

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#422187 - 09/08/09 02:08 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: EarlWeiss]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
As compare to other systems that use pattern(s) as training method --- like Chinese King Fu (such as Wing Chu, Tai Chi ...), Boxing (shadow-boxing), certain Karate family, etc --- we would see practitioners of those systems "often" use techniques resemble to their patterns training, under the condition which the individual is free to decide which tool to use (it can be stuff they learn from from patterns, drills, hitting the bags/pats, step sparring, free sparring, sports/competition ...)

I had a friend that his family is teaching Wing Chu. From what I seen is they clearly apply the moves are shown in their patterns. (And lets not debate the effectiveness of Wing Chu's training method, I think it is a different topic). However, they also do pattern training on a wooden dummy, which TKD don't use.

I am not sure how other fellow TKDer feel, as for myself in situations which I would apply things from TKD, very few comes from TKD's pattern training.

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#422466 - 09/22/09 12:39 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: TroTro]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
I don't think patterns should be scrapped. I didn't read all the previous post on here so if I am repeating this my apologies.

TKD patterns should not be scrapped, maybe adjusted slightly because times change and we are not in the 1800's or the 1940's. I think that patters are an essential part of Martial Arts specially the mental side of it.

What I've noticed about TKD patterns is that there is no INTENTION behind the moves, behind the art itself, behind the person executing the moves. I see people all over training without intention. They sparr/fight without intention, the patterns are done without intention. Somehow sloppiness/laziness became accepted in the arts probably due to all the McDOjos out there, IDK.

I've been training TKD for 12 years and I am fortunate enough to have a Master that does not slack, is on our ass every single minute about how to do things correctly not from his perspective but scientifically and realistically. The patterns have to, should be done with intention, you got to mean what your doing, understand it, visualize it, Once the person understands that then they can apply whatever is useful in a reality situation.

Bow out with respect from MARTIALIST

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#423093 - 10/24/09 09:57 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(quote)

It has been proven over and over that highly trained traditional martial artists that enter a MMA ring generally lose. And I will even boldly stand behind that if the two ever went head to head in the streets with no refs that the outcome would still be the same.

(end quote)

Derrick,

I agree with the first part of this statement but not the second part.
Yes most times when a traditionally trained martial artists enters an MMA ring they lose, but there is a reason for this.

TKD and many other arts are considered to be hard style fighting systems, meaning that if tought correctly and regarding SD, every blow delivered is ment to cause serious damage to vital body areas. Most of the main targets of a hard style fighting systems are elimated for the sake of competition and safty.

MMA competition rules are more liberal than other competition rules witch allows for better entertainment but this does not mean that these fighters would fair any better in the street where SD is concerned. In the street the trained fighter may be aiming for the chin but the traditionally trained hard style fighting system MA"s with SD in mind will be aiming about 3 inches below the chin. MMA training is a fantastic way to train to fight no argument there, but I still view SD as totally different than fighting. One should never raise a fist unless ones health or life are threatend and if this is the case things should end as quickly as possible and one can not accomplish this by implementing standard fighting methods, but they can accomplish it by implementing traditionally trained SD techniques. The problem is many TKD schools teach some form of fighting and call it SD and don"t even know the difference, if this is the case you would be correct in stating that the MMA guy would fair better in the street because yes, many MMA schools do a very good job of preparing their fighters to fight.



Edited by von1 (10/24/09 10:36 AM)

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