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#421970 - 08/29/09 02:22 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:
I would expect TKD Tutor to say nothing less.


ahh, so you don't like the message so you shoot down the messenger. typical. Personally, tkd tutor said exactly what I've been trying to say, thanks von for posting that!

Quote:
I'm sorry Laura, I disagree with some of what you said. Do you know why it sucks in a pattern? The reason is you cannot perform this and other techniques as they were intended in a pattern because the do need resistance. For many techniques you must go through what you are hitting to make them effective. How many times have you seen punches, kicks, breaks and such fail because people don't go through their intended target? Misjudged distance. Misjudged power. Stopping short of the target. Pulling back too soon. I see patterns only increasing these mistakes because in a pattern you cannot perform the technique as it was intended.


Actually I disagree. The majority of the people I see who hold back on their techniques, hold back out of fear. It's going to hurt when I kick or punch that. I challenge you to take a kids bag and a standard wave master bag. Fill them up with the same amount of sand and see what happens. More people will kick the smaller bag over than the bigger one because they perceive that the smaller bag is easier to kick over. Same thing happens with board breaking. The student gets scared of the board, stops committing to the technique. Switch out the board, or even pretend to switch out the board and they break it first try. Happens all the time.

However, take a person, say someone with ok technique, perhaps they have enough body mass to kick the bag over, and ask them to do that kick off the bag. What happens? They fall over. Maybe they are leaning. Maybe they are not rechambering their leg, just dropping it after they kick. Maybe they don't extend their kick. Fix those things, then put that student back on the bag and you will see a student with much better technique and a bag that goes flying.

The best patterns person at our school has the most beautiful, technically accurate kicks and they just shine in his patterns. Full extension, height, and power. He may weigh half of what I do, but I've been on the receiving end and been flattened by his kicks before.

A persons skill, how they hold their body, the cleanness of their technique shows in their patterns. I don't care if it's a traditional pattern that has been around for a thousand years, or one made up on the spot. A person with a sloppy pattern is going to have sloppy techniques.

Personally, I love patterns, enjoy the challenge they provide, the variety, and the feedback that they give. I loved getting a new pattern every 4 months as a colored belt. I loved going from being horrible at the whole thing to being ok with most of it but struggling with a couple of moves to the day where it all clicks and you get it and then being able to move onto the next challenge. I miss getting a new pattern every 4 months. I find it harder to stay motivated when you go a year or more between new patterns. I personally, would love it if we continued to get a new pattern every 4 month, even if it meant borrowing them from other styles. Very few other areas in the MA give you as much opportunity for momentum or growth and such constant feedback.

At my school, the biggest attendance day out of any testing cycle is always the day following a testing. The most common thing I overhear is "I hope we get to work on our new patterns today"

Laura

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#421971 - 08/29/09 03:15 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: tkd_high_green]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Von -

Quote:
Learning to fight mma. style is a young mans quest, few will ever become good enough to really affectively defend them selves for a life time battling their way out of problems this way.


Von, you clearly have a very inaccurate view of MMA-style training. There is MMA for competition (like the UFC) and there is MMA training for self defense. It is not brawling or whatever you think it is. There is a high degree of skill required to be able to put the different facets of striking and grappling together, and if you haven't done it, you might not know that it is not as easy as it looks.

Quote:
I am not talking about the professional fighters that we watch on TV, they have MA training behind them and skill sets that encompass more than the brawn that is required to fight this way.


Many current MMA pros have come up as pure MMA fighters, although many of them do have a specialty. Brawn is actually not required, although it certainly helps. Not many people regard Royce Gracie or Kenny Florian as "brawny".

Quote:
These are the altimate professionals. I am talking about the young man that walks into the new corner MMA. school and wants to be the next bad as%.


You are referring to competitive MMA folk, who are probably NOT the majority. Some do it for the workout, some because they are looking for effective SD, etc.

Quote:
Most people can not even put in enough time to become good enough to fight this way, we have jobs, relationships, kids, and other things we must attend to, and if one wants to brawl you better be good or ouch, maybe even death.


The brawling thing again. You clearly do not understand the skills involved - it is not brawling. This is probably hard to hear, but the average MMA student realitically knows much more about actual fight mechanics than the average TKD or karate person. This is coming from a fairly experienced karate person.

Quote:
To consistantly train this way means that as one ages they will be injured more and more often and their injuries will become more and more serious with more time spent on healing than actually training so how well do you think these individuals will really be able to stay good at what they train? Conditioning alone will become a problem, not to mention the mounting aches and pains from the punishment endured from this type training.


There is some truth to this, but remember that MMA style training is not always full intensity, like what you see in the UFC.

Quote:
Many, including yourself, have said to train as you fight and this is what these people are going to do and they will no longer have the goods to hang in there. They are going to want to brawl an assailant because they were once good, or thought they were good at it, and it is going to come back to bite them for the reasons stated above.


Brawling again. Von, you should really work out with some MMA people. You would find that you are really misguided in your beliefs.

Quote:
Not flashy but speaking of the long run I can make an argument that good TKD training is as good or better than the blood bath brawls that we admire on televion.


Better at what, though? Clearly not better at fighting, right? Have you seen the early UFC's?

Laura -

Quote:
Actually I disagree. The majority of the people I see who hold back on their techniques, hold back out of fear. It's going to hurt when I kick or punch that. I challenge you to take a kids bag and a standard wave master bag. Fill them up with the same amount of sand and see what happens. More people will kick the smaller bag over than the bigger one because they perceive that the smaller bag is easier to kick over. Same thing happens with board breaking. The student gets scared of the board, stops committing to the technique. Switch out the board, or even pretend to switch out the board and they break it first try. Happens all the time.


You are actually making the case for LESS pattern training and MORE resistant stuff. They can't kick the bag right, because they can't kick the bag right. Doing more patterns will not help them. Watering down people's training is doing more harm than good.


Quote:
However, take a person, say someone with ok technique, perhaps they have enough body mass to kick the bag over, and ask them to do that kick off the bag. What happens? They fall over. Maybe they are leaning. Maybe they are not rechambering their leg, just dropping it after they kick. Maybe they don't extend their kick. Fix those things, then put that student back on the bag and you will see a student with much better technique and a bag that goes flying.


They fall over? Then they don't even have 'OK' technique. But again, doing patterns is not going to help them - sparring will.

Quote:
A persons skill, how they hold their body, the cleanness of their technique shows in their patterns. I don't care if it's a traditional pattern that has been around for a thousand years, or one made up on the spot. A person with a sloppy pattern is going to have sloppy techniques.


I could agree with that, but your logic is skewed here, because you don't *need* patterns to get good, applicable technique. You do need to spar and hit the bag.

Quote:
Very few other areas in the MA give you as much opportunity for momentum or growth and such constant feedback.


Ehhhh.....I can think of several that do, more realistically and much more quickly. smile


Edited by MattJ (08/29/09 03:16 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#421972 - 08/29/09 04:26 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Matt is correct, there is a HUGE difference in MMA fighting and MMA training.

The school Arashi-Do that I did attend for a short time between June of 2008 and January of 2009 was BJJ (1 hour), Muay Thai (1 hour) and MMA (1 hour). MMA put it all together and was geared towards self defense and general training. It had nothing to do with competing; not one bit. It was merely to give you the skills and technique that many other martial arts say they will but cut out the unnecessary stuff. Competition wasn't even a factor unless you chose to; and most certainly it wasn't at any high levels.

Now if you wanted to MMA fight, well they had that too and it was mostly done at one of the other schools though some of the guys I trained with did some together at the school I attended; my old school's building they took over. If you decided that is what you wanted then you could try out for the Sniper Fight Team and if made it then you trained full time with fighters. Many years ago a young Jason MacDonald trained as such.

But for the majority of us, we will never attain that level nor have what it takes to be a fighter physically or mentally. MMA training doesn't necessarily have anything to do with competing with the exception of class sparring however competition sure can up your game. But what MMA training can give you is a solid system of defense training.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#421986 - 08/30/09 09:46 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(quote)

Von, you clearly have a very inaccurate view of MMA-style training. There is MMA for competition (like the UFC) and there is MMA training for self defense. It is not brawling or whatever you think it is. There is a high degree of skill required to be able to put the different facets of striking and grappling together, and if you haven't done it, you might not know that it is not as easy as it looks.
(end quote)


MattJ


This is really the only part of your reply that I need to address.

Some of what you say is correct, about the high level of skills, it is not as easy as it looks ect. but you assume that I have never participated in MMA training because my view of it does not match yours. Just recently I trained a little MMA at a place out side of Detroit which many believe is a very good school, me, I was not that impressed.

Yes I picked up some nice things from my limited experience at the place, but to be honest, I remain much more comfortable with my TKD SD Training than what they were teaching. I still can"t help to be of the oppinion that they prepare one for actual fighting more than ending altercations quickly, and to me my definition of fighting is brawling, you can not tell me I am wrong because this is how I see it, experienced it.

Quickest simplest example I can think of, grappling night, learning the mount, a guy is on his back I am standing at his feet, now to gain mount I want to grab and/or push legs to one side and pounce, now I have gained mount, let the beatings begin. Holly crap I have just turned a SD situation into a brawl/fight/beating! Not to mention I offer my back to a world that most likley is unfriendly! Talk about offering your back!

In a real SD situation I would be attempting to leave not gain mount! the guy was on his back for a reason, eigther he wants me down there or I already knocked him on his duff so why would I mount him? Learning to mount has absolutly no value to me where SD is a concern. Not knocking training MMA, only saying that where and what I train and assist in teaching, to me is good stuff. We train SD not fighting.

Maybe it was the school, maybe it was my own warped perception of the place, or maybe I am crazy, but this is still how I feel from the experience.




Edited by von1 (08/30/09 11:43 AM)

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#421989 - 08/30/09 11:57 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

what happened to the "should TKD patterns be scrapped"?

Thought I made some salient points as to why Not to scrap forms in general way back at the beginning.

Yes it would be a definite 'tell' if guy on ground appeared to be waiting for a mount and unless skilled on the ground best to let him get up.

Like so many internal arts the teachings give one the choice ( at of course advanced levels) of not to harm the attacker or to cause bodily harm.

Interestingly enough when one notes the use and training in Judo, BBJ and MMA of the choke (which merely renders attacker unconscious) in a simple one on one use of the choke (properly) is a means of showing the attacker mercy...yeah there are caveats and addendum's...but it is a good option

Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#421995 - 08/30/09 01:34 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: karl314285]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
HUH? Absolutely no idea where you are going with this Karl???? Doesn't even seem on topic.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#421997 - 08/30/09 02:11 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi, Dereck

Original topic WAS "Should TKD forms be Scrapped", seems to have gotten lost in a MA pissing contest.

As part of Pissing I was pointing out the value of MMA and other arts where Puffadder my see virtue in a trained technique in a one on not a group bludgeoning and how the choke is a valuable BBJ/MMA/Judo fast ground fight elimination without harmining someone (call me a softie)...that seem more on point with the Original concept of the post???>

Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#422002 - 08/30/09 03:33 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: karl314285]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Karl314285
(quote)

what happened to the "should TKD patterns be scrapped"?

(end quote)


You are correct I did venture off topic, these threds always evolve to something other than what they start out to be. I will work on that.

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#422003 - 08/30/09 03:53 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
To
MattJ and Derrick


Not trying to down your wanting to expand your skills and abilities by training MMA and by no means wanted to turn this to a TKD vs. MMA. This is an argument I would surely loose for MMA is very popular and does offer many benifits to various people.

I am just trying to explain that I am comfortable with my own training, skills, and where I am at, patterns/forms and all.

Every time I venture away from TKD I find that I end up with a renewed appreciation for it and discover things about TKD that I over looked when I was training in it.

It serves one well to step away and venture out even if your journy takes you back, I know I have done it many times, but I always return and my training and insight into TKD has improved because of it.


Edited by von1 (08/30/09 04:38 PM)

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#422004 - 08/30/09 05:17 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Every time I venture away from TKD I find that I end up with a renewed appreciation for it and discover things about TKD that I over looked when I was training in it.


I agree completely with that, and perhaps it is what people mean by martial arts being a life-long pursuit. I am not much able to comment on this, because I have not even been practicing for a decade yet, so can't say what will happen to my training in the future. TKD definitely has a lot to offer many other arts, as well as the other way around.

Every time I come back from university to rejoin my ITF TKD club, I bring with me new goals to improve my TKD- getting better at head movement; telegraphing less; faster footwork etc. And TKD offers a lot to my other MAs, even judo! My balance has very much improved thanks to TKD, and the flexibility in my hips and legs has helped enormously with ground techniques.

Having said that, I don't personally feel that any of this was gained through practicing patterns, despite performing pretty good patterns.

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