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#421896 - 08/26/09 10:20 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: von1
My goal was to show that they are still worth keeping and teaching as yet another tool of TKD and should not be scrapped. As Derrick said , patterns/forms as we call them, are a window into a martial art, and they are a window that many feel should not be closed.


The glass within this "Window" is so Heavily Fosted, it is of VERY little use and can be detrimental to the art as a whole. Espescially as Instructors continue to try and make "Dodgy" Self Defense applications from them.

For Example:
I have just come back from a book shop where I saw a TKD Patterns book which described the Upset Fingertip Strike (Palm Up Spear Hand) as an effective Groin Strike !!!



Laura
Quote:
Matt, I'm referring more to the people I've seen at tournaments and other schools. I hear a number of people say "patterns suck" when really it's their ability to perform a pattern that "sucks", or their lack of desire to do them.


You could apply your argument to the practice of constructing Brick-Life-Rafts.
Some people say that this exercise sucks, because of their lack of brick-laying ability.
But the big picture is that the entire practice is of dubious value.

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#421911 - 08/27/09 11:28 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: GriffyGriff]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Once again I think you misconstrue what I was trying to say. So let me try again.

Lets take one technique, lets say my all time favorite kick, the back kick and show how patterns can be of uses.

I can kick the bag or other target all day, with significant force (or I could when I wasn't injured), however, put this technique into a pattern and it sucks. I have no balance, my kick is low, sloppy, etc. The reason for this is that I am used to training where I can actually hit the target and my technique takes into account the weight and resistance of the target. It does not take into account the fact that I might miss!

By practicing the back kick in my pattern and the transitions to and from that kick, I improve my balance and technique and train for the possibility and all likely hood that I could miss my target in a real life situation.

I use the bag to get comfortable with hitting a target, I use pattern work to get comfortable with the technique and insure that if I miss I'm not going to loose my balance and get myself into a situation that would be very bad, and then, when I am comfortable with both, try it in a sparring match, when and if the opportunity actually arises.

Sparring requires two people, patterns and bag work do not. patterns don't even require expensive equipment. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a bag to kick, but all a person needs to practice a pattern is some space. If nothing else it's a mechanism for providing a library of techniques for the student to be able to practice on their own at home, which can then be corrected and refined in class.

Every drill in the martial arts has it's pro's and con's. One Steps are very unrealistic, but they give you the opportunity to work through counters to a specific situation. Paddle work is great, but provides no resistance. Bag work provides resistance, but doesn't move. Sparring works a lot of things, but has a lot more risk involved.

Laura

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#421917 - 08/27/09 02:02 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: tkd_high_green]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:
I can kick the bag or other target all day, with significant force (or I could when I wasn't injured), however, put this technique into a pattern and it sucks. I have no balance, my kick is low, sloppy, etc. The reason for this is that I am used to training where I can actually hit the target and my technique takes into account the weight and resistance of the target. It does not take into account the fact that I might miss!


I'm sorry Laura, I disagree with some of what you said. Do you know why it sucks in a pattern? The reason is you cannot perform this and other techniques as they were intended in a pattern because the do need resistance. For many techniques you must go through what you are hitting to make them effective. How many times have you seen punches, kicks, breaks and such fail because people don't go through their intended target? Misjudged distance. Misjudged power. Stopping short of the target. Pulling back too soon. I see patterns only increasing these mistakes because in a pattern you cannot perform the technique as it was intended.

I am reminded of one of the routines we used to do as a class. We'd start with punching and kicking drills and for me I admittingly struggled doing many kicks in the air. Sometimes I would be darn right embarrassed especially with so many years under my belt. But you put something in from on me whether it was a person, slammer shield, paddles, wave master or a heavy bag; that technique could flow. I won't ever being fighting imaginary people or kicking the air for sh1ts and giggles. When I use those techniques there will be somebody in front of me and I want to be able to go through that person. Resistance training is the only true way to do this.

Quote:
By practicing the back kick in my pattern and the transitions to and from that kick, I improve my balance and technique and train for the possibility and all likely hood that I could miss my target in a real life situation.


Still don't agree. Stumbling around in a pattern trying to perfect a technique that you are unable to do fully because you would injure yourself makes no sense to me. I would sooner train those techniques with resistance and if I miss know what that feels like so that when it does really happen that I can acknowledge it and deal with it under that type of pressure. To set up and get ready to either do it again, do something else or get ready to defend myself. True balance will come to you when doing the technique only when you are using the technique to its fullest.

Doing patterns just are unrealistic for much of the training especially if you are talking self defense or fighting. The same thing goes with standing in horse stance doing punching. And in fact many things taught are in this respect. What these things are good for is that everybody can do them whether young or old so opens up martial arts to the many who could never do them before. They look good and I would put them under the "art" category of martial arts.

I'm not a fan of Bruce Lee; not at all. Not to get into that in this thread but what I can respect about him is that he looked at martial arts and striped away a lot of the nonsense. Not everybody can do martial arts if you did this and there lies the problem. If everybody cannot do them then where is the money? So people are told and sold the reasoning for why they are doing stuff. This is passed down through one Instructor to the next to the next. This is all fine but for the majority of us we will never ever have to defend ourselves and only a small number will really compete at a higher level of fighting. So martial arts today are fine as is for the majority of us; even with patterns and such that could be time better spent actually training with resistance.
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#421924 - 08/27/09 03:10 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

I am reminded of one of the routines we used to do as a class. We'd start with punching and kicking drills and for me I admittingly struggled doing many kicks in the air. Sometimes I would be darn right embarrassed especially with so many years under my belt. But you put something in from on me whether it was a person, slammer shield, paddles, wave master or a heavy bag; that technique could flow. I won't ever being fighting imaginary people or kicking the air for sh1ts and giggles. When I use those techniques there will be somebody in front of me and I want to be able to go through that person. Resistance training is the only true way to do this.


Actually, I wouldn't go as far as to say that one should only do these things while hitting something. You can learn a lot from doing your kicks and punches in the air, not least, as Laura mentioned, in case you don't hit your target. Where I differ from Laura is that I see such things as a warm-up activity.

At the beginning of nearly every class, I do lots of kicks in the air- often not full kicks, but drills that force me to balance, keep my leg straight and high in the air, keep my feet moving etc. I do them because I think it is very important to have dexterity in your legs, and this can be built through what may seem like impractical drills. It is like SAQ training, which team sports athletes use for footwork- all that ladder training and strange shuttle running- well although it looks very impractical for playing football or basketball or whatever, it is actually very useful for building dexterity and quickness. I see my kicking drills as analogous.

However, this is really an argument that gets away from the main point of the thread. I think it would be a mistake to claim that doing techniques in the air is entirely ineffective- it is clearly not, if used as just part of practice. The problem, in my opinion, with patterns claiming to do this, is that again they do this inefficiently. If I want to build dexterity in my legs, I will do kicking drills, not patterns. If I want to improve my balance, I will do kicking drills or specific balance work, not patterns. If I want to improve my power, I will go do padwork and lift weights.

The question must always be one of efficiency, and patterns are inefficient at improving just about anything, save for the ability to perform patterns!

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#421944 - 08/28/09 04:21 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Supremor]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Supremor
However, this is really an argument that gets away from the main point of the thread. I think it would be a mistake to claim that doing techniques in the air is entirely ineffective- it is clearly not, if used as just part of practice. The problem, in my opinion, with patterns claiming to do this, is that again they do this inefficiently. If I want to build dexterity in my legs, I will do kicking drills, not patterns. If I want to improve my balance, I will do kicking drills or specific balance work, not patterns. If I want to improve my power, I will go do padwork and lift weights.

The question must always be one of efficiency, and patterns are inefficient at improving just about anything, save for the ability to perform patterns!


Yes YES YES!! I agree 100.8% Thank you VERY VERY much.
(For a while I thought I was taking Crazy Pills).
_________________________
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#421946 - 08/28/09 09:19 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: GriffyGriff]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Cha-Ching; we have a winner.
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#421953 - 08/28/09 01:19 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I will join the dog-pile, agreeing with Supremor. Patterns are dead-last, efficiency-wise, in martial arts training.
_________________________
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#421959 - 08/28/09 04:29 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: MattJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(quote from TKD Tutor)

Patterns promote serious study of the martial arts. They help enforce the values of discipline, patience, and self-control. It offers a means of self-measurement. And, it sustains many of the ancient techniques of empty-hand com-bat. Along the way, the study of forms also offers students stability and gives them a lifelong challenge to improve themselves. And it is in things that last for a lifetime that you can find the most meaning.

Pattern training is good exercise. It allows students to practice fighting techniques without an opponent, similar to shadow boxing. Students can personalize the intensity of their workout by performing the patterns with varying degrees of power and speed. One of the great things about patterns training is that it can be conducted anywhere— indoors, outdoors, and on a variety of surfaces.

Students tend to practice what is easy for them to do. Patterns force students to learn and practice difficult techniques they probably never would have even tried otherwise and to use them in combinations they probably would never have imagined. Patterns depict self-defense situations rather than than sparring techniques and show how Taekwondo may be a useful and practical fighting system.

Learning a pattern is a process. Information in some patterns is voluminous and diverse. There are no solid rules for interpreting patterns. Some are based on certain stances and related techniques. Some are so intricate that studying them can require the same effort as any other art or science.

(end quote)


I strongly agree with this assesment of patterns, especially agree with the third paragraph of this quote.


I understand why many assign a low priority to doing patterns, I my self do not get excited about doing them, but I still disagree that patterns should be scrapped. They never were and never will be the greatest tool for teaching fighting or SD but they were never ment to be the main tool, they are one of many tools for training and practicing.


Edited by von1 (08/28/09 04:54 PM)

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#421964 - 08/29/09 02:51 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I would expect TKD Tutor to say nothing less. Just like I would expect a TKD Instructor to say something similar. To say otherwise would be to admit some failings to their system. And I'm not picking on TKD, this goes for many martial arts.

Again, I also don't think they should be scrapped. They have their place in a traditional system of training. It is something every student of any age can do making TKD and other martial arts attainable. If it was solely a self defense or fighting system it would only have a small following.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#421968 - 08/29/09 10:53 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Originally Posted By: Dereck
I would expect TKD Tutor to say nothing less. Just like I would expect a TKD Instructor to say something similar. To say otherwise would be to admit some failings to their system. And I'm not picking on TKD, this goes for many martial arts.

Again, I also don't think they should be scrapped. They have their place in a traditional system of training. It is something every student of any age can do making TKD and other martial arts attainable. If it was solely a self defense or fighting system it would only have a small following.


Ok, we are some what in agreement, patterns should not be scrapped.
Correct me if I am wrong but where we part is in our oppinions of wether or not patterns are a failing to the system of TKD and other arts.

Personally I do not see them as a failing and I will attempt to explain why.

1. Learning a MA. is a life long journy.
2. Learning to fight is a young mans journy.


Learning to fight mma. style is a young mans quest, few will ever become
good enough to really affectively defend them selves for a life time battling their way out of problems this way. I am not talking about the professional fighters that we watch on TV, they have MA training behind them and skill sets that encompass more than the brawn that is required to fight this way. These are the altimate professionals. I am talking about the young man that walks into the new corner MMA. school and wants to be the next bad as%. The level of conditioning one must maintain to be good enough to battle this way is beyond most and gets worse with age.

Most people can not even put in enough time to become good enough to fight this way, we have jobs, relationships, kids, and other things we must attend to, and if one wants to brawl you better be good or ouch, maybe even death.

To consistantly train this way means that as one ages they will be injured more and more often and their injuries will become more and more serious with more time spent on healing than actually training so how well do you think these individuals will really be able to stay good at what they train? Conditioning alone will become a problem, not to mention the mounting aches and pains from the punishment endured from this type training.

Many, including yourself, have said to train as you fight and this is what these people are going to do and they will no longer have the goods to hang in there. They are going to want to brawl an assailant because they were once good, or thought they were good at it, and it is going to come back to bite them for the reasons stated above.

Now the person that has made training a life long journy that does not have too many old time serious injuries, has been able to train on a consistant basis, probably has ok conditioning, and trains to attack vital and soft tissue areas before brawling is where I prefer to be, and where the good instructors want their students to be at when they are going to need SD most.

After all who is most volnerable to attact? OLDER FOLK! This is when one will probably need SD more than any other time.

Not flashy but speaking of the long run I can make an argument that good TKD training is as good or better than the blood bath brawls that we admire on televion.

Again I am not saying that Randy Couture or others with similar talant and skills are going to become out of shape old bag of has been not capabable of defending them selves, I am talking about the average joe who walks into one of these MMA. schools that are popping up on every corner and wants to train to be the next Couture, there are not many people blessed as these guys.



Edited by von1 (08/29/09 01:12 PM)

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