FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 55 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 3
THEFOREVERMAN 3
MattJ 2
royal 2
cxt 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 4 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#421839 - 08/24/09 07:40 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Laura, I'm sorry to hear about your accident; hope you recover fully. Not to belittle what you have posted and I'm glad you are doing something to keep active however there are far better ways to build or rebuild tone then stance practice. In fact stance practice would not even fall on that list and I think professionals would agree otherwise that is what they would be doing in physiotherapy.

Von, I disagree. We don't all have the mentality of UFC but what I do find is many think that because a person is a MMA fighter that they are not training self defense. In actual fact MMA fighting is probably the closest thing to a real fight is it will get for most. Are you serious to think they don't know nasty stuff? They can no sooner practice their deadly techniques then the "nastier stuff" you learn in TKD.

It has been proven over and over that highly trained traditional martial artists that enter a MMA ring generally lose. And I will even boldly stand behind that if the two ever went head to head in the streets with no refs that the outcome would still be the same.

You are not training near the degree that these people are training to fight. To hit and to be hit. To act and to react. These people are training day in day out learning only one thing, to fight. That is their goal, to beat their opponent as quickly as possible. And if there was no ref involved then it wouldn't be a sport it would be a blood bath and people would be dead or in jail for assault/murder.

To think that they don't know eye gouges; give me a break. How many people have you eye gouged in class? I can probably guess zero unless it was by mistake. You are merely mimicking the effect and I can tell you that I don't nor do others need to mimic this to know how to do it. If I'm in a fight for my life then I will eye gouge, groin strike, bite or do anything that needs to be done; guaranteed, no training required, it is my fight to survive reaction.

You don't want to wrestle or ground'n pound or even box? Self defense comes in many forms and the person you are against will dictate what happens. Guaranteed if they are a skilled boxer they will box the hell out of you. If they are a skilled grappler or wrestler I can almost guarantee they will take you to the ground if you want to or not. All of your self defense skills will go right out the window over somebody trained in these areas.

I can speak from personal experience coming from a TKD background for over 6 years. A TKD background just like yourself, training initially from a Korean Master that taught TKD to Korean and US Troops. A TKD background blended with Hapkido to cover more then just TKD had to offer. All from one of his top students who also blended BJJ and MMA to make the system even more complete. Then when that school closed going to a BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA school that you truly find where you really stand in the mix of things.

I pull no punches. I know where my skills stand and after seeing other training, actually seeing how fighters train; I am not on that level and I guarantee very few of us on here are. And no matter how much self defense we think we are training, how many patterns we've done, it will pale in comparison to those training to fight. And again they know all of that same stuff. They know eye gouges, groin strikes, soft tissue and sensitive areas, joint manipulation ... they are trained too.

_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#421840 - 08/24/09 07:45 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: EarlWeiss]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260


Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss


Believe it or not I agre with a lot of what was said here.



Earlwiess,
You sound as if you seldom agree with me which is fine I just thought it funny the way you said it.

Top
#421842 - 08/24/09 09:02 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Laura, I'm sorry to hear about your accident; hope you recover fully. Not to belittle what you have posted and I'm glad you are doing something to keep active however there are far better ways to build or rebuild tone then stance practice. In fact stance practice would not even fall on that list and I think professionals would agree otherwise that is what they would be doing in physiotherapy.

Von, I disagree. We don't all have the mentality of UFC but what I do find is many think that because a person is a MMA fighter that they are not training self defense. In actual fact MMA fighting is probably the closest thing to a real fight is it will get for most. Are you serious to think they don't know nasty stuff? They can no sooner practice their deadly techniques then the "nastier stuff" you learn in TKD.

It has been proven over and over that highly trained traditional martial artists that enter a MMA ring generally lose. And I will even boldly stand behind that if the two ever went head to head in the streets with no refs that the outcome would still be the same.

You are not training near the degree that these people are training to fight. To hit and to be hit. To act and to react. These people are training day in day out learning only one thing, to fight. That is their goal, to beat their opponent as quickly as possible. And if there was no ref involved then it wouldn't be a sport it would be a blood bath and people would be dead or in jail for assault/murder.

To think that they don't know eye gouges; give me a break. How many people have you eye gouged in class? I can probably guess zero unless it was by mistake. You are merely mimicking the effect and I can tell you that I don't nor do others need to mimic this to know how to do it. If I'm in a fight for my life then I will eye gouge, groin strike, bite or do anything that needs to be done; guaranteed, no training required, it is my fight to survive reaction.

You don't want to wrestle or ground'n pound or even box? Self defense comes in many forms and the person you are against will dictate what happens. Guaranteed if they are a skilled boxer they will box the hell out of you. If they are a skilled grappler or wrestler I can almost guarantee they will take you to the ground if you want to or not. All of your self defense skills will go right out the window over somebody trained in these areas.

I can speak from personal experience coming from a TKD background for over 6 years. A TKD background just like yourself, training initially from a Korean Master that taught TKD to Korean and US Troops. A TKD background blended with Hapkido to cover more then just TKD had to offer. All from one of his top students who also blended BJJ and MMA to make the system even more complete. Then when that school closed going to a BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA school that you truly find where you really stand in the mix of things.

I pull no punches. I know where my skills stand and after seeing other training, actually seeing how fighters train; I am not on that level and I guarantee very few of us on here are. And no matter how much self defense we think we are training, how many patterns we've done, it will pale in comparison to those training to fight. And again they know all of that same stuff. They know eye gouges, groin strikes, soft tissue and sensitive areas, joint manipulation ... they are trained too.



Derreck

You raise many great points that on the surface are very hard to argue against but I think that we are talking about two different things.
Regarding the UFC fighters example, yes they know the nasty stuff that most every MA person knows, they learned it in their prior MA training prior to becoming a professional fighter. The difference is there is training for the average person, and there is training for the professional which 99.9% of people are never going to come close to.

Yes these guys are on a whole different level of training, agreed. Your example emplies that these are the persons that one must use SD against but these are not the people out there doing the mugging and assaults on people.

There are many persons that train MMA that do not have prior MA training, these schools are popping up everywhere, and I gaurantee that their SD training is geared towards regular fighting techniques and these people will find them selves in a fight situation not a SD situation. They are going to respond as such because that is how they train. Many of these people are going to come out on the loosing end of some of these confrontations because they have been dooped into believing that fighting is SD. I too have trained other MA and a little MMA and realize that there is differences but I would put my SD skills up against most anyone because that is what I focus, train, and practice the most.

My comment about not wanting to box/wressle/ground and pound was ment to emply that there are more affective and quicker methods to ending a confrontation than an all out fight. As far as ones assailant dictating what happens I disagree strongly, they may dictate the beginning but I plan to dictate the ending, which is much harder to do if you are in a fight.

Your arguement is geared towards the professional fighter and mine is more of an average joe mentality and that is what most people are, and most of us need to defend against, most criminals are average joes gone bad and I can say this with confidence because I work with criminals all day for a living.

Top
#421846 - 08/25/09 07:59 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: von1


Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss


Believe it or not I agre with a lot of what was said here.



Earlwiess,
You sound as if you seldom agree with me which is fine I just thought it funny the way you said it.


Just tinking. Perhaps in order to properly evaluate a person's opinion on patterns we need to first know:
A. What pattern system(s) they studied
B. Approximate number of classroom hours spent on the pattern

Neither of the above are definitive. But perhaps will add some insight. As to item B above, sometimes hours of experience is really just the same experience repeated for hours.

Top
#421847 - 08/25/09 09:51 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Woah!! Back up there von!

Quote:
These are just two examples that can be found in patterns that would be affective SD and if we look deep into patterns you will find many, many more. I train to perfect SD skills more than fighting skills and take my SD way more seriously than learning how to fight an assailant UFC style. Not saying that some of the fighting skills are a bad thing but I personally will rely on the nastier things that TKD offers and there are many techniques that are very nasty stuff. Every one is talking as if fighting is the same as SD and again it is not, (but one will make it that way if that is how they train) this is worth saying again, (one will make it that way if this is how they train!)



I think you're making a mistake when you associate my arguments with the "UFC is SD" position. I am not saying that at all, although I would say that mma is nearer self defence than patterns practice. What I am saying is that patterns are neither an effective tool for fighting OR for self defence.

That is for different reasons in each case, but the basic point is that patterns don't resemble either. If you want to train to be a fighter, then you should train like an mma guy. But if you want to train for self defence, you should be doing stuff that deliberately gears you up for self defence situations. For example- role playing situations, defence against weapons, rape scenarios for women etc. etc. It should probably be done in what John Kogas would call an "alive" way, i.e. with resistance, because you want to mimic a self defence situation as much as possible. But it is not the same as mma training, that much is a given.

The fact is that if you want to be good at something, you should practice that something a heck of a lot. In terms of self defence, this is probably unwise!! Getting yourself into dangerous situations all the time is more trouble than it's worth. However, you can attempt to simulate a self defence situation as much as possible, while keeping things relatively safe, in a dojang/gym. Patterns in no way simulate self defence situations- they are about as far removed from a stressful, threatening situation as you could get!

So you're right to say that fighting and self defence are apples and oranges, but patterns practice is a lemon. wink

Top
#421850 - 08/25/09 10:42 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: tkd_high_green]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: tkd_high_green
I wonder if people are against patterns because they aren't willing to do the work, or because they've never been taught the correct way to do them. I see too many people at too many schools just walk through patterns and not give them the attention they deserve.


I, for one, am against them because there are more productive ways to train, IMHO. They amount of attention they deserve is really a matter of opinion.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#421852 - 08/25/09 11:19 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: MattJ]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Matt, I'm referring more to the people I've seen at tournaments and other schools. I hear a number of people say "patterns suck" when really it's their ability to perform a pattern that "sucks", or their lack of desire to do them.

At tournaments, I look at people who come from strictly sparring schools and those that are more "traditional". 9 times out of 10, the people who win the sparring competitions are those that also win the patterns competitions. And typically, the patterns schools are a lot stronger than the sparring only schools. Heck, I've seen instructors drop patterns from their curriculum and watched the quality of their students drop rapidly.

At my own school, it's very clear that the people who practice their patterns regularly improve their technique much quicker than those that don't. Maybe it's just that the people willing to practice patterns are just more serious about their training, but there is a very noticeable difference.

Anyone can throw a punch, but how many people do you know can perform a pattern like Juche, where you perform a side kick then while keeping the foot up in the are turn 180 degrees around? I guarantee that person is going to be in better control of their body and be able to respond better to any situation.

Please also understand that I am not saying that patterns are the only thing you train, but just one aspect that has a lot of value IMHO.

I hear "homework sucks" a lot from children, does that mean we should get rid of it too?

Laura

Top
#421856 - 08/25/09 12:00 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: tkd_high_green]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: tkd_high_green
Matt, I'm referring more to the people I've seen at tournaments and other schools. I hear a number of people say "patterns suck" when really it's their ability to perform a pattern that "sucks", or their lack of desire to do them.


In my case, it's a question of efficiency in time spent. Patterns are dead last in comparison to almost anything else (sparring, bag work, etc).

Quote:
At tournaments, I look at people who come from strictly sparring schools and those that are more "traditional". 9 times out of 10, the people who win the sparring competitions are those that also win the patterns competitions. And typically, the patterns schools are a lot stronger than the sparring only schools. Heck, I've seen instructors drop patterns from their curriculum and watched the quality of their students drop rapidly.


I think that shows that people who compete a lot, win a lot. I don't see that patterns have anything to do with it.

Quote:
At my own school, it's very clear that the people who practice their patterns regularly improve their technique much quicker than those that don't.


Anything is possible, I suppose. But again, I haven't noticed that forms work increases anyone's fighting ability in the slightest.

Quote:
Maybe it's just that the people willing to practice patterns are just more serious about their training, but there is a very noticeable difference.


That's extremely condescending, and I *know* that is not true. Anyone that judged my training by lack of forms practice would be sorely misguided.

Quote:
Anyone can throw a punch, but how many people do you know can perform a pattern like Juche, where you perform a side kick then while keeping the foot up in the are turn 180 degrees around? I guarantee that person is going to be in better control of their body and be able to respond better to any situation.


You guarantee it? I'm pretty sure being a gymnast does not mean that someone can fight. You are trying to connect practices that have nothing to do with each other.

Quote:
Please also understand that I am not saying that patterns are the only thing you train, but just one aspect that has a lot of value IMHO.


I understand. But I disagree. smile
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#421858 - 08/25/09 01:19 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Laura, if you base how well you a are a martial artist by how well you do patterns then you have missed the boat. If you are good at patterns because you practice them a lot then that is all it is; you are good at patterns. Doesn't make you better at kicking. It doesn't make you better at punching. It doesn't make you better at self defense. It doesn't make you better at sparring. It only makes you better at patterns.

In a traditional system where patterns are used I see no problem with them supplementing the other things you are doing; I have absolutely no problems with that. They are the "art" side of martial arts and they are a part of a system as a whole. But as to effectiveness, I put them very low on the scale of things and in order to flourish in fighting or self defense then there are better things to put your times towards.

Quote:
Matt, I'm referring more to the people I've seen at tournaments and other schools. I hear a number of people say "patterns suck" when really it's their ability to perform a pattern that "sucks", or their lack of desire to do them.


Laura, I don't agree with this. I did not dislike patterns and in fact I did them very well and I also taught them very well. There was no lack of desire of ability on my part. However I am not blinded by what they really are and know there are better ways to train.

I always laughed at competitions and people winning trophies and medals for performing patterns. I personally think this part is a joke and what give TKD and other martial arts a black eye. To think many of these people think their are skilled martial artists because they can perform preset moves. Sure there are techniques shown in them but I will guarantee you that it is no different then what a dancer could do and in fact I could easily train one do perform them and perform them well. In fact I could take an average person and teach them patterns and they would do well at these tournaments. Doesn't make them martial artists, it just means they can follow direction.

I understand that not everybody has the same view of martial arts. I also understand that martial arts especially traditional martial arts are there for everybody to do and in order to do them a lot of things have to be dumbed down or have to be modified so that all can participate. Patterns are most certainly something everybody can participate in but not for once would I base how well somebody does patterns to how well a martial artist they are. Nor would I believe that they are a form of teaching self defense or teaching techniques because there are more effective ways of doing this. I will not disagree that they can "show off" techniques and self defense moves and are a window into martial arts; but they are nothing more then that.

I have seen many people who were excellent at patterns, understood them and liked them but they fell short in other areas of martial arts training and conditioning. I've seen others not perform patterns well and disliked them but when it came down to the grit of martial arts they were excellent. And of course I have seen others excellent at patterns and the grit of martial arts. So patterns in reality really cannot be held in such high regard in relation to how well a martial artist is. A performance aspect to display the art itself; nothing more.

We all have our strong points. We all have our likes and dislikes. What ever we decide we like, how every we decide to keep active mentally and physically; well then that is all good. I am reminded of something my Instructor always said. "If they come out of this with just one thing that will make them better then that is all that matters. If you are happy doing it even better." I totally agree with this however I'm also not one to believe I am more then I really am.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#421887 - 08/26/09 04:53 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(Part quote from Derrick)

I will not disagree that they can "show off" techniques and self defense moves and are a window into martial arts; but they are nothing more then that.

(end partial quote)

This I agree with.

I never ment to emply that patterns are the best way to teach SD or fighting. My goal was to show that they are still worth keeping and teaching as yet another tool of TKD and should not be scrapped. As Derrick said , patterns/forms as we call them, are a window into a martial art, and they are a window that many feel should not be closed.


Edited by von1 (08/26/09 07:46 PM)

Top
Page 4 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga