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#421791 - 08/22/09 06:53 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
So I guess whenever boxers do "Shadow Boxing" to practice their combos and footwork, they are wasting their time?


Back up the train EarlWeiss. You cannot compare a boxer working on combos this way and a person doing patterns; two different things.

Boxers and MMA fighters will train in the "shadow" type drills working on breathing, combos, footwork, etc. This has a lot of mental training and focusing. They train to fight, with fight being the key word. This CANNOT be compared to somebody performing a pattern. Boxers and MMA fighters will mimic how they actually fight, patterns are no such things. They are preset moves and techniques that require certain spaces between their feet and how certain techniques should look; look being the key word. We all know that no fight will ever look like a pattern and most certainly foot work won't. So you cannot compare the two, not at all, not ever.

Shadow training to fight is different then pattern performance for visual effect.


Your train and mine are on different tracks. I can absolutely compare the 2. There is however a difference. Boxers and MMA people are training exclusively for sporting contests with one opponent, (Not what I define as a "Fight" . Perhaps we need to define the term. So their drills reflect this. TKD patterns are designed for combat with any number of opponents positioned anywhere around you. This is what I call a fight.

Ever seen someone try to Steamroll the person in a fight. That is the base you need to develop in a front or walking Stance to prevent this. Someone try to sweep or kick tour lead leg. You need an L stance. Opponents to either side? Then a Sitting / horse stance may be best (Of course world Champ Boxer Ken Norton defeated Ali with it). How do you turn, advance or retreat with any number of opponents. Patterns provide this practice. Someone tries to hit you on the head with a stick, you need a rising outer forearm block in a sold stance. (Boxers and MMA guys don't need to train for this) . Etc. Yep, it includes Breathing, combos and footwork.

You think "Look" is the operative word. I think it is not the operative word but simply a characteristic. I think the operative words are movement, Balance, power, efficiency, tarining for adrenal stress conditioning, Learning angles, directions and levels of attack and defense and in some cases Esthetics.

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#421818 - 08/24/09 06:55 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: EarlWeiss]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Boxers doing shadow-boxing and TKD Practioners doing Tuls are immensely different. Paracticing Tuls is just getting your body trained at doing obscure and unrealistic movements.
That's why boxers don't do Tuls, or Shadow-Knitting.

laugh laugh laugh I know... lets pretend that it was all just a bad dream and TKD Patterns are really really special laugh laugh laugh laugh
_________________________
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#421819 - 08/24/09 09:12 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: GriffyGriff]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Agreed.

What I find is that too many people have bought into or sold patterns as anything but what they really are. If they were all that and a bag of chips then every fighter would be doing them and they are not. Instead you will find that martial artists from a traditional background who get into fighting will scrap things they don't need to work on things they do need, and patterns are not one of them.
_________________________
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#421820 - 08/24/09 09:23 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
I can Empathise with them. They like myself, have spent years doing TKD, getting their black belts and beyond. That's quite an investment.

Then someone realises that the Tuls which have been religiously practised for years are in fact quite nonsensical. That is a hard thing to take and many will continue to bury their heads in the sand. It's a shame. If it could been seen for what it is, then there would be better chance for an evolutionary change. But I seriously doubt that.
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#421823 - 08/24/09 11:32 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Yep, Dereck, have to agree with you. The reverse is also true, that if forms were so great then not doing them would be a hinderance to all those who needed to win a fight...and that just ain't so.

As for the comment about competition that Mr. Weis added, the functional problem is two fold here: 1) In every example of skill related use, I see competition...that's true for TKD and elsewhere; and 2) The only thing that has changed when competing in the use of the techniques is the intent. Tell me where a round kick would be different if applied in SD or a comp?

There is no difference in technique. Added to this is the fact that everyone seems to scream aboug a big difference in allowed techniques, well traditionalists don't use these either in competitions and there's no one saying that a MMAist wouldn't also practice for SD scenarios.

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#421824 - 08/24/09 11:56 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: butterfly]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Good point Brad.

In most of the systems I have been in they were always geared towards self defense. My TKD most certainly was, only competed once in the 7 years being there. Yes we did patterns but that was set aside for 1 day in our 6 day rotation and was basically needed due to testing for belts. While told to do imagining an imaginary opponent, would it not have been better if there was an actual opponent?

BJJ most certainly was self defense orientated and to practice some of those techniques competition was a good way to do this because you had people other then the ones you trained with; people who were out to win. No patterns in BJJ is most certainly a plus and having to do everything with resistance is a huge thing when it comes to training; no pretending here. A short stint in Muay Thai and MMA that I took briefly were also geared toward self defense not competition. Also nice about both was no patterns. All things were practical and always had resistance training. Competition was never a factor. If you wanted to compete you could but there was a huge difference between MMA training and MMA fighting. If you wanted to fight then you did so by trying out for the MMA fight club and that required a lot more training which again no patterns were considered. You want to fight you drop stuff you don't need to learn to fight. You focus on fighting and patterns do not do that otherwise they would be used.

Again, patterns are fine for traditional systems that want to show off the art. I would never say they don't show techniques of the art however I can think of better ways to train technique then within a pattern and that would be all resistance training. People want to talk about focus, breathing, footwork and so much more about patterns but that is just not realistic. Perhaps trying your focus, breathing and footwork while somebody is trying to punch you in the face or tackle you to the ground. This way realism is being addressed and realism is where you really need to focus because that is when you need it the most; when your adrenalin is running high and your mind is in fight or flight mode. Patterns will NEVER address this.

Again, I see nothing wrong with incorporating patterns in a traditional system. I can even say I enjoyed some of them. I enjoyed being put on the spot to perform them, though at the time I may have said differently. But I understood why they were there and did not read into them more then many would.
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#421830 - 08/24/09 01:21 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Again, I see nothing wrong with incorporating patterns in a traditional system. I can even say I enjoyed some of them. I enjoyed being put on the spot to perform them, though at the time I may have said differently. But I understood why they were there and did not read into them more then many would.


Ain't that the truth! You know, too often we get hung up trying to find a reason why we do things. Patterns for some people are good fun, beautiful and medidative. There's nothing wrong with having them in your training if they are there for that reason. All I think that most of us is saying, is that they are not an EFFECTIVE way of training for fighting or self defense.

People train martial arts for many reason, and most train for more than one reason. If the above reasons are important to them, then I see no reason why we should attack those who perform patterns. Heck, I do patterns when I train TKD. I'm not a big fan of them, but I like the school and you have to take the rough with the smooth. And I can see the attraction of patterns: there is a great sense of achievement in practicing something a lot and then seeing noticeable improvements. I'm sure it's not helping my sparring an awful lot, but it can be good fun.

If you're a professional fighter, then practicing patterns is not an effective way to spend your time. But for the rest of us, being far from professionals, we can pick and choose to a certain extent, according to what we enjoy and what we think brings us closest towards our personal set of goals.

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#421834 - 08/24/09 03:46 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Supremor]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Are patterns realistic? No, of course not. When are you ever going to fight someone where you move that slow between moves? However, if trained properly, patterns CAN teach you a lot. How to generate power, balance, focus. It gives you time to work on the correct motion of a technique. If done correctly, it's a great workout and one you can do on your own, without fancy equipment. We are told you should be breathing hard by the third repetition of your pattern. If not, you aren't doing it hard enough.

In addition, it's one area that can be done without a lot of risk. In my own case, it's just about the only thing I can do right now. I was thrown from my horse early this summer and I am still recovering (broken pelvic bone, in two spots, and a wrenched knee). I am unable to do most everything else as I am unable to jump or kick for very long without pain, nor can I risk self defense, grappling, or sparring. But lower patterns are something I can still do. Stance practice is a great way to build/rebuild muscle tone.

I wonder if people are against patterns because they aren't willing to do the work, or because they've never been taught the correct way to do them. I see too many people at too many schools just walk through patterns and not give them the attention they deserve.

Laura

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#421835 - 08/24/09 03:53 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Supremor]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Ok people, I am going to start somthing here but I feel that I must. It sounds to me that most people speaking against practicing patterns are too hung up on or caught up in the UFC mentality.
What I mean by this is that people keep saying to train like you would fight and they are absolutly correct! if one wants to fight, but SD is much different than fighting. Patterns/forms contain many usefull and more affective weapons that one can choose from than traditional fighting techniques, especially at the higher levels. Many patterns that are practiced contain things such as eye couges,spear hands to volnerable body parts and much more. I do not want to get into a boxing/wressling/ground and pound situation when it comes to SD.
I would much rather spear hand an assailant in the neck or eye and get out of dodge not fight him and risk losing. This of course is a last resort.
These are just two examples that can be found in patterns that would be affective SD and if we look deep into patterns you will find many, many more. I train to perfect SD skills more than fighting skills and take my SD way more seriously than learning how to fight an assailant UFC style. Not saying that some of the fighting skills are a bad thing but I personally will rely on the nastier things that TKD offers and there are many techniques that are very nasty stuff. Every one is talking as if fighting is the same as SD and again it is not, (but one will make it that way if that is how they train) this is worth saying again, (one will make it that way if this is how they train!) One will naturally begin to fight!
Maybe my thinking comes from the fact that my instructor came from Korea and use to be a U.S. army combative instructor so we distingish our training and group it as fighting or SD, but never are they confused as being the same. We train to fight and we train for SD, and personally I perfer it that way and never forget the difference.


Edited by von1 (08/24/09 04:30 PM)

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#421836 - 08/24/09 04:59 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: von1]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Believe it or not I agre with a lot of what was said here. If all you want to do is Fight or compete, you don't need patterns. Of course, you may do any number of drills which might be viewed as mini patterns.

If you eliminate any consideration of an esthetic performance, one only geared for competition victory or battlefield survival do you really have an art?

20 years ago before it became mass marketed I asked an Israeli about the learning the MArtial Art of Krav Maga in the Military. His answer was "Art, what art? There is nothing artistic about kneeing someone in the groin."

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