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#421537 - 08/13/09 04:25 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: KiBon]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
KiBon, those videos I found horrible. Actually in class we did something similar but without the voicing, just kihups. But as i was doing a TMA I was okay with that but now that I can step back and look at martial arts and their effectiveness, it was merely fluff; like a lot of thing in TMA. It fills the void and while there are hints of techniques in them that translate over to other martial art skills, the time spent on them could have been better spent doing better training.

The book sounds interesting, I think I will take a look at it.

Your TKD was like my TKD, practiced many things but called themselves TKD. Mine was probably 70% TKD and 30% BJJ with hints of MMA thrown into them. And of the 70% TKD it also had Hapkido blended into it. Of course this all comes down to the instructor and what his interests were, and with mine also fighting professionally MMA, his interest were then translated over to our training. And like you mentioned it wasn't the best boxing it wast the best hapkido, my Instructor always told us that if we really wanted to excel in any aspects that we then need to cross train; go to a boxing school for punching, go to a Judo school for throwing, etc. Some of us actually did and I also gave a go at Judo but with weight lifting, my regular training and Judo, it was too much. And when our school closed I went into a school that taught separately Muay Thai, BJJ and MMA (an hour each night). But with 3 hours a night and weight lifting I was getting burned so it was then only Muay Thai and BJJ and then finally only BJJ. With now me not having trained since January. But will again in the future.

Back to regards to patterns, I don't think they need to be redone they just need to only be in a system where everybody understand they are the art side. If your training is gear towards fighting and self defense then perhaps you need to be looking for another school and that may not even be a TKD school.
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#421560 - 08/14/09 11:11 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
There are patterns that General Choi was asked to be included or incorporated in the system but he refused.

There are a sequense of practical moves that could be used in a fighting situation.

They were referred to as sparring patterns.

I have been doing them for at least seven years now.

My instructor GM CK Choi would disagree with the notion that TKD is not a fighting system. He would say it was first developed as a fighting system but to many people it has lost its way or been taught incorrectly. Too much focus on sparring for competetion and too much focus on patterns. Not enough focus on contact fighting and the developmen of knock out techniques.

We are trainned that it is not the number of technique you know but rather it is the number of techniques you could potentially knock somebody out with that is important.

Check my post re Allex Gilles "A Killing Art"

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#421568 - 08/14/09 01:59 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: flynch]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I agree Flynch, TKD is most certainly a fighting system IF taught that way; no disagreement from me. Unfortunately that is not the case with the greater percentage of TKD out there.

That is the problems; watered down systems that crank out students that know very little in way of self defense or fighting. They believe because they do patterns that those hold the key to self defense, timing and technique and that is WRONG. To learn to fight and defend you need to ... say it with me ... fight and defend. This does not mean with imaginary opponents and it does not mean without resistance. Understanding that you must crawl then walk and then run, the same goes with training. Yes you have to start with little to no resistance to learn these techniques however the resistance should be increasing all of the time. The problem is within many martial arts systems, and TKD is not the only one, that resistance doesn't change. Without adequate resistance one will never truly know how to fight or defend themselves. Until you've been hit and hit hard you will truly never know how to react. With many martial arts to make it available for everybody this has been watered down or taken out and thus you have the crap that is out there. And in saying that I also say that martial arts is not for everybody, not the true nature of martial arts.
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#421672 - 08/17/09 04:22 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
In my humble opinion, the number of forms in TKD is too *many*.

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#421706 - 08/18/09 11:25 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Prizewriter]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

I've never sparred a TKD stylist, in tournament or our dojo (guest stylists are always welcome to join our sparring class as long as respect,rules and they have control w/ lower ranks and agree to amount of contact w/ Dan ranks prior) or even watched a TKD class..but..FORMS..HUmmm

Forms and prearranged sparring sets do not teach either sport fighting or how to fight. But I believe I have 2-3 reasonable supports to not eliminate them...but then these are things I've pondered, My Master did not say what follows, so as they are my reasons(students ask why) I made up....opinion only

1.)Most people starting a MA often come with NO trained body control, they walk poorly, lack grace, may be weak and inflexible, and probably would never come back if just thrown into technique and sparring.
The Kata strengthen, teach bodily awareness in stillness and motion such that arms, legs,head and body may all move without thought(eventually), and as they approach the point where they are ready to begin sparring they have been inculcated and accept the concept that they are learning to cause damage or death to an attacker, and those who dont like the idea find a Tai Chi school:) (just kidding)

2.)Sometimes a different perspective is all it takes...for the moment forget that some MA believe Kata are intended to teach fighting...now you are a seasoned warrior in the late 1800's and teach the Shogun MA and you know 100's of techniques, you want to open a school and dont want any of your best individual attack/defense techniques forgotton after you kick it...KATA ARE MENU of all the techniques master sosanso found best and the pre arranged format w/ repetition ensures individual technique will not be lost.

3.)gateway...some advanced students will never try to make their own kata or may live believing it does teach how to fight and never split up techniques in a form to see what fits and flows,and there they are stuck.
The students destined to produce the best of the new generation drop all preconceived idea of kata and experiment, creating, perfecting favorite, or more natural for their body, techniques and moving these into sparring, the prelude to fighting.

as for "too Many" I believe in Cuong-Nhu I dont even know how many forms we have...I believe the idea here is that one is to continue practice and that for a life time...Theres enough to keep the advanced student (a "Lifer") always learning and growing, so not "too many", just enough for life...hhmmmmm

What do y'all think, good reasons for keeping kata?

Karl. Peace.
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#421742 - 08/19/09 09:20 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: karl314285]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(quote)

1.)Most people starting a MA often come with NO trained body control, they walk poorly, lack grace, may be weak and inflexible, and probably would never come back if just thrown into technique and sparring.
The Kata strengthen, teach bodily awareness in stillness and motion such that arms, legs,head and body may all move without thought(eventually), and as they approach the point where they are ready to begin sparring they have been inculcated and accept the concept that they are learning to cause damage or death to an attacker, and those who dont like the idea find a Tai Chi school:) (just kidding)
(end quote)


Very nice points. I do not believe that forms were ever intended to be an accurate representation of SD or fighting. I also like your point as to forms being a minue to chose from and incorporate what one is comfortable with, again nice points.
One thing that I am convinced of is that forms/patterns are a nice tool to teach the body to transition from one manuveur to another while maintaing proper balance, posture, and form. I am not referring to the form it"s self regarding proper balance, posture, and form, I am referring to an individual technique be it a punch, kick, or combination of many techniques.
MA people practice patterns for a reason and always have and no one will convince me that they serve no perpose. I have done MA for many years and have done my share of sparring, in training and competitivly, and have witnessed first hand that the best fighters are always the fighters that train in all aspects of TKD including patterns because of the above stated reasons. Others have talked about resisting partners and this is also a must to reach the top of ones quest to become good at SD or fighting, but that does not mean that practicing patterns is worthless.
If patterns are good for the beginner why arn"t they good for a person at higher rank? arn"t we all beginners at the next leval with new things to learn, practice and perfect? I am not saying that patterns are the best for training to sparr, fight, or SD, I am saying that they are another tool that should not be ignorred.
Does this all mean that if one is good at performong patterns that they will be good at fighting, absolutly NOT! Does it mean that one can not learn to be a good fighter if they suck at patterns, absolutly NOT! What I am saying is that those that incorporate, study, and practice more of their craft seem to always become more crafty.

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#421769 - 08/21/09 10:57 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Dereck]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Quote:
Also, it helps me with my footwork. Kinda hard to defend yourself when you trip over your own feet.



Plainly put, working against imaginary opponents doing set out patterns is not an effective way to train if you are in it for self defense or in it to learn to fight. You want that then you need to train as such. If you want to take a martial art for the overall experience then patterns are fine and they can express the art. You truly cannot train techniques to their fullest in patterns to apply to real life experiences.

You say what? I'll say it again, you truly cannot train techniques to their fullest in patterns to apply to real life experiences. For example, you cannot tell me the kicks you are performing in patterns is as effective as hitting a person or a slammer shield or a heavy bag. Kicks are meant to be driven through the target which is something you cannot do in a pattern. Now you say that the patterns are a supplement to that such training you are doing as well. I then say good, that is what I would expect from training martial arts as a whole BUT if you are training specifically for self defense or fighting then you are wasting your time because time could be better spent doing more live training. Cut out the fluff and train like you want to perform.



So I guess whenever boxers do "Shadow Boxing" to practice their combos and footwork, they are wasting their time?

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#421770 - 08/21/09 11:08 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: Prizewriter]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I think the focus of the OP is too narrow. Patterns are not meant to be the only or ultimate training tool. They are just one tool.

First, if you only want to learn to fight, forget about learning a Martial Art all together. What you need is more in the nature of a Martial Science. Victoruy is the only goal. No need for Philosophy, beauty, or competition.

Now, you can focus on THE application for a technique. Or you can broaden your focus.

This involves the following. Reality Based Guru Peyton Quinn runs RMCAT. He states up front that he does not teach a Martial Art. It is a padded assailant adrenal stress program. Now, a big part of what they do is teaching you how to operate in the adrenalized state that accompanies SD situatiuons. One effect of this state is that movements become smaller and even trained individuals find the moves may then be ineffective. So, the scenarios and training involves going thru moves in an exagerated fashion so that when adrenalized the moves are smaller but still large and powerful. As they explain this I am thinking "Patterns".

Next. (And this is something Gneral Choi would cover in his courses) While you can focus on a single stated application for a technique. Or, you can focus on the "Real Application" found in any number of books, perhaps insted what you should focus on is how the pattern teaches you to move with well balanced power and practical efficiency in certain directions, levels and angles. Now, however you apply that motion is only limited by practical considerations.

A common example would be the traditional low outer forearm block being used to block an attack directed to the lower part of the body, effect a release from a wrist grab, or perhaps strike the neck of a person trying to grab you around the waist for a takedown. The motion, angle and diurection is virtualy identical.

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#421772 - 08/21/09 11:57 AM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: EarlWeiss]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I actually agree with Dereck and EarlWeiss. That for one, forms are tools (but in my opinion lesser tools than other ways of training the same thing better and quicker in modern times)that are traditional---and if that's what you want go for it.

However, with that said, a system taught sans any applications from those forms in their most rudimentary applications have turned their back on their use so can be easily abondoned---then they are just vestigial parts of something that could be usable but are misunderstood. BTW, I am one of those who thinks forms of any kind should be gotten rid of, but in my trek through TKD to never be informed of the use of a front stance as also the same movement for certain throws, that a horse stance can be used to control a falling opponent so that your center of gravity goes down with the opponent and so that you can use one of your bent knees as an impacting surface to drop your opponent's head onto....well it's frustrating to see these things denuded from the original intent and then taught as loose, coreagraphed elements that have no bearing on utility when there are aspects of use that could be entertained and practiced.

If you system does not teach these things or says that forms were meant to be used against multiple assailants, well you've got the watered down versions of the art because the instruction is missing these applications. Maybe the system's not bad, but then it is a few steps away from how thse things were thought of as mnemonic devices to teach application.

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#421773 - 08/21/09 12:00 PM Re: Should TKD patterns be scrapped? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
So I guess whenever boxers do "Shadow Boxing" to practice their combos and footwork, they are wasting their time?


Back up the train EarlWeiss. You cannot compare a boxer working on combos this way and a person doing patterns; two different things.

Boxers and MMA fighters will train in the "shadow" type drills working on breathing, combos, footwork, etc. This has a lot of mental training and focusing. They train to fight, with fight being the key word. This CANNOT be compared to somebody performing a pattern. Boxers and MMA fighters will mimic how they actually fight, patterns are no such things. They are preset moves and techniques that require certain spaces between their feet and how certain techniques should look; look being the key word. We all know that no fight will ever look like a pattern and most certainly foot work won't. So you cannot compare the two, not at all, not ever.

Shadow training to fight is different then pattern performance for visual effect.
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