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#421441 - 08/10/09 05:13 AM effectiveness on men versus women
britt-tapia Offline
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Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 1
i started krav about 3 months ago and we learn a lot of techniques that involve groin shots- for example: escaping from a headlock- how effective would these be on a woman? i am curious to know because i was jumped by three women back in november.

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#421445 - 08/10/09 08:32 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: britt-tapia]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IMO, any technique that "relies" upon the groin shot should not be considered reliable. Many people are impervious to pain in a street fight for various reasons. Some people even wear groin cups. Have some other form of technique that isn't based on a person "deciding" to quit holding you in a headlock (or any other position/situation for that matter).

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#421492 - 08/11/09 05:12 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: britt-tapia]
Dedicated1 Offline
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Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
The groin shot is not intended to be a fight stopper. It is only meant to disrupt the attackers thought process, enabling you to continue sending overwhelming counter attacks. Like Kogas said, some people have little to no reaction to a groin strike. So male or female it doesn't matter, send the groin strike but continue to follow through with other combatives. Never assume that any one tactic will work on everyone, every time. Remember Krav is about overwhelming your attacker and not giving his brain a chance to catch up to speed with your defenses. If you pause to see what you've done to them, you've given them a chance to process the situation and fight back.
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#430083 - 09/22/10 10:47 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: JKogas]
kvnkane Offline
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Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: JKogas
IMO, any technique that "relies" upon the groin shot should not be considered reliable. Many people are impervious to pain in a street fight for various reasons. Some people even wear groin cups. Have some other form of technique that isn't based on a person "deciding" to quit holding you in a headlock (or any other position/situation for that matter).



i completly disagree, and i have never met anyone who is impervious to being smacked in the nuts. krav teaches more than one way to get out of a headlock anyway. and sorry to hear about you getting jumped man that seriously sucks.
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#430092 - 09/22/10 05:06 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: kvnkane]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Wow this is an old thread!

Just to say though, the groin isn't always an easy target to get at ( I know I know "Speak for youself" lol!).

Additionally, it's not as far fetched to think people may not feel pain in the groin. If a person is high or very drunk possibly it may temporarily negate the sensation of pain.

Also, as rare as it would be to meet someone who does it, Shaolin monks have exercises to condition and protect their groin:



Matthew Polly in his great book "American Shaolin" attests to witnessing first hand to a monk being kicked hard downstairs while wearing no protective gear. Polly states that as fact as he was asked to come out of the audience and kick the monk himself!!!
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#430095 - 09/22/10 07:18 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: kvnkane]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:
I completly disagree, and i have never met anyone who is impervious to being smacked in the nuts. krav teaches more than one way to get out of a headlock anyway. and sorry to hear about you getting jumped man that seriously sucks


Then you haven't met the wrong kind of people. Have you ever tried to fight someone on methamphetamine, crack or really drunk? How many live encounters have you been in (not in the academy) where you have used a "smack in the nuts", and have any of those encounters--if there are any--involved your opponent under the above influnces.

I have personally dealt with all of the above. Some times, yeah, groin shot works, often, no it doesn't. I have told a story on here before of being, what some might consider, seriously injured in that area before--and still working as a doorman for sometime before noticing that blood was dripping down my leg! I went to the bathroom and lo-and-behold, there's my testicle...I could see it through the hole in my scrotum.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430121 - 09/24/10 12:17 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Ames]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
there's my testicle...I could see it through the hole in my scrotum.


Wow there should be a rating on this thread...you can't let a guy sitting at his desk just walk into reading something like this... cry

I'm going to be in phantom pain all day now.

On a more serious note, I agree that groin strikes are a bit overrated as targets, first as this example shows, the body will block the normal pain one might expect when the adrenaline rush hits, and second, every male walking upright is amazing good and protecting his groin, regardless of training.

Fake a shot at just about any guy and watch, they almost always in their flinch reaction protect the groin in some way.

Not to say it's not an option as a target, everything is on the table when it comes to self defense but I think was is important is to understand where the finish line is and the groin is not it.

In my opinion in self defense, besides escape of course. If stopping the attacker is your goal and you are using either striking or submission to accomplish the goal, then what you are doing is interfering with brain function to prevent the person from be capable of continuing. Period.

Everything else is simply a prelude to that. A strike or serious of strikes which disrupts brain function physically prevents a person from moving (a knockout) or a choke which cuts off oxygen to the brain which causes a person to loose consciousness, are forms of disrupting brain function and the goal of self defense technique. Everything else is a prelude to that, or a setup to get there.

It's possible an attacker might lose the will to fight prior to reaching that state due to the fear or injury of encounter, but in self defense we cannot count on or assume that.

What I do not believe, is that you teach someone to gouge the eyes or strike the groin as a delay on stop technique. While possible, it must be assumed improbable. Dominant position must be fought for, to create either the chance to strike, obtain a choke, a weapon or separation and escape.

Personally, I'm not even a big fan of separation and escape because if you are not big enough to beat a man, are you fast enough to escape them?

Self Defense to me says worse case scenario, and worse case scenario says you must stop the brain function of your attacker in order to secure you escape. That means knock out or submission...by any means necessary.

Should, other options present themselves? Running etc? Fantastic, path of least resistance. But for training, assume the worse, hope for the best.
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#430152 - 09/26/10 07:08 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: JKogas
people are impervious to pain in a street fight for various reasons. Some people even wear groin cups. "


Well relying on any kind of striking is out then. So much for all the muay thai and boxing I've done. grin
Really though, groin strikes tend to work very well, unless you hit like a 12 year old girl. Often not fight ending but it'll certainly get a person's a teention. That's usually enough to follow up with something more likely to fully disable someone. The worst that could happen "Well that didn't work, lets try hitting the stomach". Sometimes the goin is all that's open. Whatever is there, hit it hard and hit it repeatedly.
Personally I prefer the nose but I like groin shots too. Doesn't really matter if you hit hard.
Seriously though, if a guy is coming at you and he looks hopped up on drugs or something, not much of any martial arts is likely to work, grab the nearest available weapon. Survive first, deal with the law later. Hard drugs should be considered deadly weapons. I've heard of guys who looked completely gone with various things taking multiple gun shots and continuing to fight. Yeah like any unarmed fighting is really going to work.


Edited by Stormdragon (09/26/10 07:12 AM)
_________________________
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#430212 - 09/28/10 02:39 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Stormdragon]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:
Well relying on any kind of striking is out then. So much for all the muay thai and boxing I've done. Really though, groin strikes tend to work very well, unless you hit like a 12 year old girl.


What is it that makes 12 year old girls impervious to groin attacks--does the onset of puberty increase their resistence?

Seriously though, the issue here isn't that 'groin attacks never work', it's that relying on a single 'fight ending' blow is not good s.d. training imo. A lot of techniques I've seen in krav involve a pulled kick to the groin and the person playing attacker acting as though they are really injured, bending down, whatever, so that the technique chain can be finished. I'm not saying that krav maga wouldn't have a response to missing the groin, or the groin attack not actually doing anything, just that what is out there doesn't show this reality. Considering krav's claim to fame is RBSD, I find this odd.

Neither boxing or MT training is predicated on a single fight ending blow. That is the goal, sure, but techniques are taught in a manner where if that blow is unsuccesful, you can launch the next one. If fight ending blows were so easy to attain, I hardly think either of these arts would be interesting spectator sports--they would be over in seconds. So one question I have is...why does a MT match often take so long to acheive a knock out (if it indeed does), whereas RBSD systems show the fight ending in seconds? Which one is more realistic? Is the truth somewhere inbetween?

Basically, all I'm saying is to check the assumptions that go into techniques. If the assumption of your technique is that this one blow will 'finish' your opponent, well, I don't think that's so good. If it's 'this might do this, but if not here's how to flow into something else', then that's good.

Quote:
Seriously though, if a guy is coming at you and he looks hopped up on drugs or something, not much of any martial arts is likely to work, grab the nearest available weapon. Survive first, deal with the law later. Hard drugs should be considered deadly weapons. I've heard of guys who looked completely gone with various things taking multiple gun shots and continuing to fight. Yeah like any unarmed fighting is really going to work.


You are right, in this situation most unarmed fighting won't work. Nonetheless, I think this is the situation you should train for because it increases your 'b.s. threshold'. Train with an eye to beating this guy and suddenly a lot of crap that gets taught goes out the window. I know that sounds a little contradictory, but basically what I'm saying is that the single most important assumption underlying all s.d. training should be that the attacker is well trained and willing to inflict severe violence with no regard to rules, laws etc. and has a very high pain threshold.


Edited by Ames (09/28/10 02:45 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430374 - 10/08/10 06:27 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Well, at least they chain attacks after something like a groin strike unlike some arts that have the godhand mindset of one punch one kill.

I don't advocate spending too much time learning to chain attacks based entirely on specific reactions (like bending over from a groin strike) but if you're practicing to flow into more attacks before stopping than that's not terrible. If you give someone a good hard kick in the crotch it WILL get some kind of reaction,l now they may well still be able to fight and if they actually are on something then it probably will do nothing, but a normal guy off the street is going to feel it enough to open up something else. Just like if you give someone a good shin kick in the thigh. Sure it may not end the fight but it will give you an opening somewhere else.

The difference with muay thai, is we don't really care all that much how you react from a particular attack, because the next thing we throw will hit SOMETHING and it will hurt. Actually, from what I've seen of Krav Maga, continuing attacks and motion is a big thing which I like. That concept has worked well for me when sparring with good fighters.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430447 - 10/13/10 09:46 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Ames]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:
Seriously though, the issue here isn't that 'groin attacks never work', it's that relying on a single 'fight ending' blow is not good s.d. training imo. A lot of techniques I've seen in krav involve a pulled kick to the groin and the person playing attacker acting as though they are really injured, bending down, whatever, so that the technique chain can be finished. I'm not saying that krav maga wouldn't have a response to missing the groin, or the groin attack not actually doing anything, just that what is out there doesn't show this reality. Considering krav's claim to fame is RBSD, I find this odd.


Perhaps we are missing the point. Perhaps the reality is not a fighting ending blow. But a blow good enough to make an escape and end the fight that way. For someone who is a non martial artist a basic self defense clan can be predicated on such techniques good enough for escapes. Single attacking techniques delivered to an opponent by surprised not meant to maim or kill but good enough to enough to make a quick get away.

Later on a more advance course in self defense can carry on the basic attacks and lead into the realm of "what would you do if the person blocked the attack." Then you can go into follow ups and address the "what if's?"

Quote:
Neither boxing or MT training is predicated on a single fight ending blow. That is the goal, sure, but techniques are taught in a manner where if that blow is unsuccesful, you can launch the next one. If fight ending blows were so easy to attain, I hardly think either of these arts would be interesting spectator sports--they would be over in seconds.


That's why they are sports. Because it's based on continuous combat separated by weight classes to make things as equal as possible.

Quote:
So one question I have is...why does a MT match often take so long to acheive a knock out (if it indeed does), whereas RBSD systems show the fight ending in seconds? Which one is more realistic? Is the truth somewhere inbetween?


MT is a sport and while they go full contact and fight hard. They are not in real life or death combat or at least that is not the goal. Rules, weight classes, and most importantly the element of surprise has been taken away.

In RBSD both fighters being equal in attributes and skill, it is the one who cheats first using the element of surprise who will be the victor.

Quote:
Basically, all I'm saying is to check the assumptions that go into techniques. If the assumption of your technique is that this one blow will 'finish' your opponent, well, I don't think that's so good. If it's 'this might do this, but if not here's how to flow into something else', then that's good.


I agree you can never go in believing one technique will end the fight. You can only attack and see how it goes. I wouldn't recommend stopping with one attack until you know you can get away.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#430523 - 10/18/10 08:16 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: TeK9]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Sorry it took so long to reply, been very busy.

Quote:
For someone who is a non martial artist a basic self defense clan can be predicated on such techniques good enough for escapes. Single attacking techniques delivered to an opponent by surprised not meant to maim or kill but good enough to enough to make a quick get away.


What you're saying here is logical. But it doesn' really address the problem I put forward: if this non-martial artist is heavily reliant on single fight ending techniques...what happens if it doesn't work? What I'm getting at is that any training that teaches, even a beginner, a singly fight ending technique as adequete self defence is highly questionable.

As a matter of fact, I think it is worse to teach this kind of stuff to non-martial artists...at least someone who plans to continue training will (should!) gradually learn more techniques and be able to create chains of movement that way so that eventually they will not rely on a single technique. A non-martial artist who takes a couple of workshops is often given a false sense of security in thinking that they can survive an encounter because they "have the right move" to escape. This, to me, is a little bit like giving someone a gun with a single bullet and asking them to face a uzi.

Why should you wait for a "more advanced course" to learn good self defence. Look at the work of Paul Vunak, he teaches continuous flow from day one, in a highly realistic environment so that reactions are not chereographed.

Quote:
That's why they are sports. Because it's based on continuous combat separated by weight classes to make things as equal as possible.


I don't see your point? Regarding the weight class issue are you saying it would take less time for a smaller defender to incapicitate an attacker on the street?

Further, what is the phsiological difference between a punch to the face (or kick in the belly) in krav maga compared to a punch in the face, or kick in the gut, in a combat "sport"? Why is it that every kick that lands to the belly in Krav seems to make the person getting kicked buckle, yet this doesn't happen (not 100%) to people who take the same technique in full contact karate, muay thai, savate, mma, etc?

Here's an example: This is from Human Weapon. At the beginning of the show, for some reason, Chambers' kick at little effect on the attacker (about 5:10):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s12A3iffL6A

The kick happens, but the attacker keeps coming in. Ok, fair enough. What I don't understand though is why at 4:35/36 (in the same clip) the instructor does the very same kind of front kick, yet gets a very different reaction, where the opponent goes flying backwards?? Same for this clip, where, now that he has learned krav, suddenly single knees from Chambers are downing his opponents (@ 4:04):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s12A3iffL6A

If you watch that first clip the instructor tells Chambers that he is a good fighter, but has no self defence skill...I'm confused, because that instructor used that exact same technique right before! I call this "instructor chi".

Quote:
MT is a sport and while they go full contact and fight hard.


You're right. Krav seems to use the clinch, the knee and the elbow, all halmarks of MT. Only difference? MT fighters actually hit each other regularly with those techniques, often not wearing a copious amount of body protection and (most importantly) without cheoreographing the response of the person being hit.

Quote:
They are not in real life or death combat or at least that is not the goal.


RBSD is not "real life or death combat" either.

Quote:
Rules, weight classes, and most importantly the element of surprise has been taken away.


Out of the 3 varibles you've outlined only the 2nd (weight classes) is not found in RBSD systems. Rules exist, or else I doubt people would be walking out of training in one piece. Suprise is not truly present either: everyone has elected to go there.

Quote:
In RBSD both fighters being equal in attributes and skill, it is the one who cheats first using the element of surprise who will be the victor.


Sorry, but how is this different from, say, MMA? Isn't it the one who gets off the best technique (or chain) who is most likely to take out his opponent?? The above strategy is not at odds with MMA, it is the same. You've used the word 'cheat' here, and obviously, being a sport, MMA fighters don't want to cheat, but at the same time the actually concept of what you are talking about is exactly the same as any decent martial art.

Also, I would question the assumptions behind what you are saying: namely that "both fighters being equal in attributes and skill". Is this actually true in a self defence situation? What about the "non-martial artist" you spoke of earlier, who has taken a beginner class or whatever?

Quote:
I agree you can never go in believing one technique will end the fight. You can only attack and see how it goes.


I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. I don't mean to get overly semantic here, but...using the Jkd terminology here sometimes a single direct attack is indeed the best option, other times it is an attack by combination. I think Krav does a good job with the first, and an ok job with the second. However, other times it is best to feint or use footwork to expose a hole in your opponents defenses(progressive indirect attack), other times it is best to draw your opponet out first. In all the Krav I've seen (which, admittedly is mostly from video, but also some from friends who study it) I havn't really seen the second two used...footwork appears almost non-existent, feinting is rarely is used. Personally, I think this is a direct result of people 'downing' themselves in training once a proper 'krav' attack has been launched (a la the videos above).

Please understand though, that I'm not arguing the old combat sport vs. RBSD thing. What I am suggesting is that without live exchange of techniques, a trainee is depriving themself of an important aspect of fighting/self defence...most importantly the understanding that people receive techniques in a variety of ways. Try punching four different people in the stomach, and watch how they respond...some will step back, some will buckle over, some will take it...all different reactions to the same technique...this is an important dimension of fighting which chereography does not adquetely cover imo.

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430795 - 11/03/10 10:46 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The only thing that RBSD SHOULD have that mma or any other combat sport is time spent working on situational awareness, de-escalation strategies, escape and evasion, and weapons of opportunity. And of course mentioning where mma techniques need to be slightly tweaked so you don't, say, get your nuts bit or something. And when you don't have the rules to worry about you can spend some time lookign at opportunities to use things like ball shots to create openings. However, you don't need to spend TOO much time on that dirty stuff, I'm realizing a lot of it is just common sense. You only need to gloss over that stuff a little bit. Still valuable though. For example take down defence, if some one tackles me with a double leg, in mma I'm going to stuff his head, get my hips out, and move out at an angle. In a street fight I still need to do that but I can drop some elbows to the back of their head first. Or grab a rock and crack their skull with it. RBSD should only add some strategy and unique training scenarios, not much i nthe way of physical techniques.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430819 - 11/06/10 11:14 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: britt-tapia]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello britt-tapia:

Hopefully it has not happened since then? Did you get some help to "unwind" that event for you? As others have said the groin strikes are not intended to be a "one shot" kill... few techniques do so. However all it takes is ONE, at the right time to connect well and the fight is over.

Women do not want to be hit or struck in the groin any more than any man. The region is nerve rich, and very sensitive. However, if you want to stop a woman akin to the male "groin strike" their chest might be a decent parallel target...

Jeff

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