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#422235 - 09/10/09 03:25 PM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Yeah, he was going in when he got caught, but he didnt press the action like he normally has whichis why Silva taunted and baited him into it. Im just saying, it didnt look like the typical forrest fight to me, thats all.

Oh yeah, and Anderson is God. Whatever. I dont get all starry eyed and wonderstruck by the things he does like alot of people do. Thats not to take anything away from him, he is highly talented and skilled, but Im not so amazed to say that he's the best out or the greatest ever. Theres plenty of guys with the same attributes, talent and skills that he has, afterall, he's only human.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#422238 - 09/10/09 06:13 PM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: Chen Zen]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
Yeah, he was going in when he got caught, but he didnt press the action like he normally has whichis why Silva taunted and baited him into it. Im just saying, it didnt look like the typical forrest fight to me, thats all.


And why do you think that is? Could it be that he got caught, felt Andersons power and thought better of it in the 1st few seconds of the fight? Best will in the world to the guy, but taking the best of Stephan Bonnar, and taking the best of The Spider are completely different propsitions, and that is why his tactics changed.

Quote:
Oh yeah, and Anderson is God. Whatever. I dont get all starry eyed and wonderstruck by the things he does like alot of people do.


I fail to see how you could not see his timing, his judgement of distance, and his reflexes in that fight as anything other than extraordinary.

Quote:
Thats not to take anything away from him, he is highly talented and skilled, but Im not so amazed to say that he's the best out or the greatest ever.


He doesnt have to be, and such subjective titles are ephemeral at best - like 'P4P', its daft. I would say however, that he displays all the attributes to put him in the echelons of the truly great athletes. Carl Lewis, Ali, Anderson, Bolt, Phelps, Hoye etc. A rare list of the elite who had a 'gift' to make the elite of their opposition look ordinary.
You said it yourself, Forrest didnt look as good as he has in other fights. My contention is that this is not because Forrest underperformed, but that the gulf between them was such that his best seemed clumsy and ineffectual.

Quote:
Theres plenty of guys with the same attributes, talent and skills that he has, afterall, he's only human.


Please name them. Marquadt? Franklin? Forrest (x2)?, Rampage? Liddell? Jardine?

Great fighters all, 3 of which have already been destroyed by Anderson.

Right now, his biggest challenge is staying motivated to train and not get complacent. If not carefull, he could defeat himself.

The only challenge he has in the form of an oponent who I could see having comparable ability is GSP.

I understand why you want to believe Forrest could take Anderson - he has that 'everyman' image that is very appealing, and very inspirational to a lot of aspiring fighters, no doubt yourself included. He is 'only human' and indeed, is at pains to never let us forget that, so if he can win, then every guy sweating on every mat in the world can win. The truth is that Griffin has been above that level since before we ever heard of him, but has played a nice PR game with a winning smile, and still couldnt touch Anderson.
Imagine how quick he would have dropped had he really been an 'average joe' like the rest of us.
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#422240 - 09/10/09 09:09 PM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: Cord]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You make some good points, as usual Dave. Like you said, he felt Anderson's Power early and it changed his fight. I said that myself a few points earlier. But surely a fighter on his level,above the "average Joe", knows that there are ways around this. For example, the ground game, which he failed to attempt. Its never the best option, when changing tactics, to simply become defensive. Sure he had SOME offense but it appeared to me to be out of necessity. An attempt to use offense as a defense. Perhaps in the outside world those tactics MAY work but in a NHB competition setting, defense alone will not allow you to prevail. Even if he survived every round, points alone would have lost the fight for him.

Seeing his attributes as extraordinary? Why? When he fought against someone who apparently shouldnt have been in the ring with him? Thats like saying that a BJJ BB has extroardinary skills because he out wrestled the neighbors kid. Sure, he displayed good things, but it was against an opponent who wasnt suppose to win. That doesnt seem extraordinary to me. Enough to put him in that upper tier, sure. He's done that already. To me though, extraordinary is when you have an opposition that nearly does you in, and your still able to pull out all the stops and get the win. I remember one of the early UFC fights when groin hitting was still allowed. This guy, cant remember who, but this guy is on his back, ankles behind his head and his opponent has him "Mounted" and strikes him in the sack at least 20 times. The guy on his back eventually was able to manuever out of it and win the fight. Thats extraordinary. If he would have went in and just grappled the guy and submitted him, it would have been like a billion other fights Ive seen.

Perhaps the gulf between them is that big, however I dont think that its a fair thing to say when he attempted to do very little.

As for my wanting forrest to win, it has more to do with Anderson than Forrest really. I like Forrest, of course, but Id be happy to see anyone defeat Anderson because of the pedestal that he has been put on, and because he truly believes that he is the best in the world and to me thats just foolish. And, I always tend to root for the "UnderDog".
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#422246 - 09/11/09 04:12 AM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
You make some good points, as usual Dave. Like you said, he felt Anderson's Power early and it changed his fight. I said that myself a few points earlier. But surely a fighter on his level,above the "average Joe", knows that there are ways around this. For example, the ground game, which he failed to attempt. Its never the best option, when changing tactics, to simply become defensive. Sure he had SOME offense but it appeared to me to be out of necessity. An attempt to use offense as a defense. Perhaps in the outside world those tactics MAY work but in a NHB competition setting, defense alone will not allow you to prevail. Even if he survived every round, points alone would have lost the fight for him.


Even Forrest has admitted himself he has horrible takedowns. So if he can't take him down he would have to pull guard. And he couldn't even touch Silva. How could he take him to the ground?

Quote:
Seeing his attributes as extraordinary? Why? When he fought against someone who apparently shouldnt have been in the ring with him? Thats like saying that a BJJ BB has extroardinary skills because he out wrestled the neighbors kid. Sure, he displayed good things, but it was against an opponent who wasnt suppose to win. That doesnt seem extraordinary to me. Enough to put him in that upper tier, sure. He's done that already. To me though, extraordinary is when you have an opposition that nearly does you in, and your still able to pull out all the stops and get the win. I remember one of the early UFC fights when groin hitting was still allowed. This guy, cant remember who, but this guy is on his back, ankles behind his head and his opponent has him "Mounted" and strikes him in the sack at least 20 times. The guy on his back eventually was able to manuever out of it and win the fight. Thats extraordinary. If he would have went in and just grappled the guy and submitted him, it would have been like a billion other fights Ive seen.


I guess you forget when Travis Lutter had Silva mounted and rained down punches on Silva. Well Silva survived and came back and submitted Lutter, who was supposed to be better than Silva on the ground.

Quote:
Perhaps the gulf between them is that big, however I dont think that its a fair thing to say when he attempted to do very little.


He did just about all he could before getting knocked out in the middle of the 1st round. What more could he have done?

Quote:
As for my wanting forrest to win, it has more to do with Anderson than Forrest really. I like Forrest, of course, but Id be happy to see anyone defeat Anderson because of the pedestal that he has been put on, and because he truly believes that he is the best in the world and to me thats just foolish. And, I always tend to root for the "UnderDog".


If anyone one in the UFC has earned a spot on this pedestal, who could it possibly be if not Silva. No one has his record in the UFC of beating the very best. The better his competition gets the better he gets.
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#422248 - 09/11/09 07:40 AM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: medulanet]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
What Medulanet said. *Cord's keyboard breathes a sigh of relief* wink
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#422251 - 09/11/09 09:33 AM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: Chen Zen]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
Oh yeah, and Anderson is God. Whatever. I dont get all starry eyed and wonderstruck by the things he does like alot of people do.


I can assure you I am not starry eyed for Anderson Silva, I just can see the truth. I can't wait for somebody to beat him but right now I can't see it with the present talent unless it is by luck.

I foresee the following happen. (1) He goes undefeated and retires shortly. (2) He continues to fight but his skills degrade enough for somebody to win. (3) Somebody gets lucky and capitalizes on a mistake. As of current at his skill level, confidence level, fitness level and fight mentality, there are few in this sport that have reached this pinnacle. When somebody does beat him it will shock in awe the world; let's just hope it isn't a Serra/GSP type of awe but a real awe due to a better talent.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#422253 - 09/11/09 10:12 AM Re: UFC 101: SPOILERS [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Haha, not to dog-pile you here Chen, but I wanted to comment on this:

Quote:
I remember one of the early UFC fights when groin hitting was still allowed. This guy, cant remember who, but this guy is on his back, ankles behind his head and his opponent has him "Mounted" and strikes him in the sack at least 20 times. The guy on his back eventually was able to manuever out of it and win the fight. Thats extraordinary.


I think you may be thinking of the Keith Hackney/Joe Son fight, where Hackney struck Son in the groin many times. I saw that fight when it came on originally, too. But Son lost that fight.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Son

Otherwise agreed with Medulanent et al.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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