FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 28 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Ronin1966 3
ergees 2
Victor Smith 1
GojuRyuboy13 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35583 Topics
432511 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#420893 - 07/16/09 04:41 PM Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
http://www.akillingart.com/blog

I tried for years to get these on tape but Alex at least gotton a piece up for people to see.

Top
#421559 - 08/14/09 11:04 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
There are a few new sparring patterns on tape now ont eh video and blog section of this site

Top
#423103 - 10/24/09 05:33 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
Tino Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 106
Loc: USA
Those sparring patterns are awesome,I wish I could find all nineteen patterns.Theres 4 I saw on the video blog,but Gilles talks about 19 total that grandmaster Choi helped develop.Great post.
_________________________
Tino

Top
#423501 - 11/11/09 04:53 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Tino]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
When you said "patterns" I was expecting a little more than just 8 point blocking or running through the different ways you can punch someone. But then again, how long does a routine have to be before it goes from just a drill to a pattern? 19 moves?

Top
#424030 - 12/14/09 02:41 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Tino]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: Tino
Those sparring patterns are awesome,I wish I could find all nineteen patterns.Theres 4 I saw on the video blog,but Gilles talks about 19 total that grandmaster Choi helped develop.Great post.


We are working on a book well more of a pamphlet detaining these. We have to take a few more photos and I needed to writet the introduction. GM CK Choi wanted it shorter and more tot he point than I had thought.

Top
#424031 - 12/14/09 02:58 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: tkd_high_green]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: tkd_high_green
When you said "patterns" I was expecting a little more than just 8 point blocking or running through the different ways you can punch someone. But then again, how long does a routine have to be before it goes from just a drill to a pattern? 19 moves?


I can understand your question but I can't really say what the difference is. Patterns or drills it does not really matter what you call them. GM CK Choi wants to focus the attention on practical fighting techniques. He wants to make sure that people who study original Tae Kwon Do have the tools they need to be successful both in a tournament and on the street.

These are what he calls sparring patterns and he learned them from his primary instructor and he used them and still uses them today. They include all stiking techniquee hand, elbow etc and all kicking techniques (not seen on the videos). for example the equavalent for a front snap kick would be something like. Stationary, shuffling, sliding, jumping, long jumping, high jumping.

I think his concern is that students and instructors spend more time working on the techniques that are more likely to actually be useful during a fight.

It is not that he dismisses the importance of traditional patterns from an art and an exercise point of view simply that there should be a greater focus on the fighting techniques side of Tae Kwon Do

Top
#424123 - 12/22/09 10:12 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
I can understand your question but I can't really say what the difference is. Patterns or drills it does not really matter what you call them. GM CK Choi wants to focus the attention on practical fighting techniques. He wants to make sure that people who study original Tae Kwon Do have the tools they need to be successful both in a tournament and on the street.

I think his concern is that students and instructors spend more time working on the techniques that are more likely to actually be useful during a fight.
It is not that he dismisses the importance of traditional patterns from an art and an exercise point of view simply that there should be a greater focus on the fighting techniques side of Tae Kwon Do

I can see GM Choi's point. No matter what you call them, if you make a drill or exercise, then students will work them. If they work them, they may be more likely to realize that they are valuable tools & may use them

Top
#424124 - 12/22/09 10:18 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
These are what he calls sparring patterns and he learned them from his primary instructor and he used them and still uses them today.
Would that be Gen. Woo?
Students of TKD should know that he was the only other officer from the OhDoKwan to attain the rank of general, other than Gen Choi. This was one of the ways that the brutal dictator lashed out & fought Gen Choi, marginalizing him over the years.

Top
#424126 - 12/23/09 03:12 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Yes Gen. Woo

Top
#425280 - 02/20/10 02:55 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Those sparring patterns look good! How important are they to the ITF system?

Top
#425293 - 02/20/10 08:34 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
They are not part of the ITF system. They are wonderfull contributions by 2 original TKD pioneers

Top
#425298 - 02/20/10 09:44 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
They are not part of the ITF system. They are wonderfull contributions by 2 original TKD pioneers


Alex Gillis refers to them as the Lost Gospels. Maybe they should be part of the curriculum. But only one pioneer, CK Choi, designed them. Who is the other pioneer you're referring to?

Top
#425307 - 02/20/10 01:24 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Oh, OK - Major Woo, as he then was. I reread the thread and got my answer.

I think GM CK Choi is concerned about ITF becoming another sport, just as WTF has become, and he wants to cut out the fluff and focus more on the unarmed combat. At least, that's my impression.

Top
#425391 - 02/21/10 06:33 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Oh, OK - Major Woo, as he then was. I reread the thread and got my answer. Correct
I think GM CK Choi is concerned about ITF becoming another sport, just as WTF has become, and he wants to cut out the fluff and focus more on the unarmed combat. At least, that's my impression.
Agreed for the most part


Edited by ITFunity (02/21/10 06:34 PM)

Top
#425392 - 02/21/10 06:37 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
If you agree "for the most part", then what part don't you agree with?

Top
#425640 - 03/03/10 04:51 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
More sparring videos with GM CK Choi

http://www.youtube.com/user/al3xgillis#p/a/u/0/1e5W00tyNd8

http://www.youtube.com/user/al3xgillis#p/a/u/1/xmpK8GdoPR8

BTW this has been my summer dojang for years

Top
#425641 - 03/03/10 04:51 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265

Top
#425643 - 03/03/10 07:27 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Master Bolanos, my TKD instructor whom I trained with at the local Community college here teaches kicking and punching patterns very similar to the ones presented by GM CK Choi.

My instructor is a 5th dan in TKD, and also holds a high rank in kenpo and Judo. He trained in Panama and was a Pan American medalist in TKD.

He is Kukikwon certified and teaches TKD both as sport and as self defense.

Back in when I first started training with him I was already a black belt and was tired of performing patterns, but these sparring ones I thought were more appropriate for someone beginning because you moved in a realistic way. So I decided to include these short patterns into my personal teaching syllabus.

When I asked him about his TKD training back in Panama he said his teacher never did patterns. It was straight basics with footwork.

Back then his patterns were the Palgwe's. Old school TKD. May not look pretty but it worked.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#425645 - 03/03/10 08:20 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
See now that is interesting, your instructor being from Panama that is.

For the last five or so years GM CK Choi has been trying (or asking me to locate) a training film he was hired to make for the leader of Paraguay in the 1960's.

Top
#425646 - 03/03/10 08:36 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
My mistake Master Bolanos did not originally learn the Palgwe's he first learned the pyong-ahn which are the Korean version the Okinawan Pinan's used in almost all karate styles including shotokan.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#425991 - 03/23/10 12:18 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I just reviewed a pre copy of GM CK Choi's updated book. This contains the sparring patterns referenced above he taught recently during his UK Seminar Series for the TAGB which was well attended by more than just the TAGB

Oddly enough during my visit to reveiw the book I of course was ushered downstairs to actually review my own performance of the said patterns.

I should know by now there is no such thing as a simple weekend visit with tea and lunch.

I did not bring my dobok but that didn't matter. After a quick coffee and a reveiw of the material it was downstairs to the dojang to go through everything from the most basic blocking patterns all the way up to the kicking patterns with high jumping reverse kicks and everything.

While unprepared it was great to go through these practical movements and by pass the formal patterns. It is much easier to perform them with realism when the movements are... well... real...

Top
#425992 - 03/23/10 12:48 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Flynch,

Are you Alex Gillis?

Top
#425993 - 03/23/10 12:55 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
No I am not. I have meet him before and he is a nice guy and a good writer. He was kind enough to sign a copy of his book for me.


Edited by flynch (03/23/10 12:57 AM)

Top
#425994 - 03/23/10 12:57 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
OK - you seem to know GM Choi very well, so I thought you were Mr Gillis, writing about his sparring patterns.

Top
#425995 - 03/23/10 12:59 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
GM CK Choi is my instructor

Top
#425996 - 03/23/10 01:18 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Still??? I thought he had retired.

Top
#425997 - 03/23/10 01:27 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
GM CK Choi is retired in the sense that he does not have a full time dojang to run & he no longer oversees his businesses. But he is still very much involved in TKD, willing to go & help any TKD people or organizations that see a benefit it what he can offer. I would add that he has a really lot to offer!

Top
#425998 - 03/23/10 01:40 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
He did give up his main school after the General Choi issues of the 80's. He gave it to Sun Choi.

He has continued to train and he used his Tae Kwon Do as a bouncer at his own bar in the poorest/roughest area of the country. In addition he has always had a handful of students that he instructs privately, assists with school operations and the testing of senior students. Most of them have been his students for 30 plus years.

Top
#426000 - 03/23/10 01:47 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Quote:
He did give up his main school after the General Choi issues of the 80's. He gave it to Sun Choi.


And that other Choi (not Sun Soo Choi, another one) ran the school into the ground.

ITF Unity, I once said I studied under a TKD pioneer, and you asked me who that was.

Can you guess now who that was? wink

Top
#426009 - 03/23/10 03:48 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Yes the school was mishandled and many of the students left. The top students had been given their own schools to run in the area but away from the main school.

I have always found it interesting that when he left malaysia he gave his school away and when he left his main school he gave it away again. I always asked why he did not sell it as a viable business.

It seems we have a mystery on our hands with the tkdfan mr. unity.



Edited by flynch (03/23/10 03:49 PM)

Top
#426023 - 03/24/10 06:56 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Quote:
He did give up his main school after the General Choi issues of the 80's. He gave it to Sun Choi.


And that other Choi (not Sun Soo Choi, another one) ran the school into the ground.

ITF Unity, I once said I studied under a TKD pioneer, and you asked me who that was.

Can you guess now who that was? wink
I guess that was him, Sun Choi

Top
#426029 - 03/24/10 10:04 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Sun Soo Choi was never a pioneer, and, as I said, he did NOT take over GM CK Choi's school. The other Choi who did was also NOT a pioneer and ran it into the ground.

So who was the pioneer who taught me? Come on, you know the answer. smile

Top
#426067 - 03/26/10 10:09 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
GM CK Choi is retired in the sense that he does not have a full time dojang to run & he no longer oversees his businesses. But he is still very much involved in TKD, willing to go & help any TKD people or organizations that see a benefit it what he can offer. I would add that he has a really lot to offer!


True. I am surprised you said this itf? as here http://vimeo.com/6846374 GM Choi talks about Original Tae kwon-do and yet it is not what you are doing.
_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

Top
#426075 - 03/27/10 12:36 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Sun Soo Choi was never a pioneer, and, as I said, he did NOT take over GM CK Choi's school. The other Choi who did was also NOT a pioneer and ran it into the ground.

So who was the pioneer who taught me? Come on, you know the answer. smile


wrt GM CK Choi's school, there was nobody else available to take the school over as they were asked and could not commit the time. The person who took it over lost many of the students and my understanding is had issues when dealing with those who stayed on to help. I have heard that before those issues could be resolved he had some sort of an accident.

Top
#426076 - 03/27/10 01:16 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
GM CK Choi has his opinions on things and he will express them. He will always have strong feelings regarding the General going to north korea and focusing on SW in patterns. He gave up his main school and left the General in 1986 after 30 plus years. He was so offended by the General's actions he gave up his life's work and his lively hood. But he never quit Tae Kwon Do he just did not want to be a part of the ITF under General Choi and he would have nothing to do with the WTF. Until the General's death GM CK Choi was mainly concerned with practising and passing on to his close students the Tae Kwon Do he learned, helped create and taught from the mid 50's Please remember he does have the No 5 turtle plaque, he was the first heavy weight champion and nobody has ever questioned his help with Ge-Baek or his contributon to Tae Kwon Do.

To be fair to GM CK Choi he is allowed to express his opinions. It is also the case that (rightly or wrongly) many refer to the current style of ITF as "north korean". That does not make it north korean but it is a fairly common label used today. It is unfortunate that of all the positive things he has done and has tried to do people focus on this issue.

I have said for over 6 years now that GM CK Choi will work with any orgainization or individual to help them with Tae Kwon Do. This had included the ITF-V (he has met with Master Tran on several occassions and has been asked to comment on issues) the ICTF, the WTA, independants etc.

GM CK Choi is focused mainly on the fighting side of Tae Kwon Do but he recognizes that traditional patterns are important for many people but views them as more for general exercise and tradition. If pressed he does practise the pre-SW (no need to debate the merits of either) version of the patterns without north korean inspired political names and if asked he is willing to debate anyone as to the merits of his opinions on the matter.

As he sees it the TAGB does practice the patterns in a manner which is more consitant with his training methods.

While I do not know anything about the TAGB they stepped up to the plate and scheduled a series of seminars with GM CK Choi and he truly enjoyed it. Good for them. GM CK Choi does not want to be just sitting on a chair somewhere handing out trophies or meeting for golf tournaments he want to teach Tae Kwon Do and more specfically sparring techniques

Top
#426092 - 03/27/10 01:26 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: flynch

While I do not know anything about the TAGB they stepped up to the plate and scheduled a series of seminars with GM CK Choi and he truly enjoyed it. Good for them. GM CK Choi does not want to be just sitting on a chair somewhere handing out trophies or meeting for golf tournaments he want to teach Tae Kwon Do and more specfically sparring techniques


Flynch, for your information, TAGB split from UKTA (GM Rhee's UK ITF organisation... the first in UK), as it says in the interview. The split was largely about finances and perceived lack of democracy within the organisation. The split took place in the early 1980's, before ITF adopted SW. Those members were some of the highest ranking UK practitioners of ITF-TKD.

TAGB continued to teach what they had been taught under Master Rhee Ki Ha, Master Teh etc. ie. the waist twist and the forms of tul. They also added an extra 4 forms of 2 step sparring. They had phenomenal international success in competition, WAKO etc. They later founded TKD International, a multi-TKD organisation with international/world competitions.

As I originally trained with TAGB, my tul are those taught to me there. I was surprised at some of the recent variations now used by 'official' ITF clubs.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#426094 - 03/27/10 02:38 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: trevek]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
May I ask what a tul is? A pattern?

Top
#426096 - 03/27/10 05:20 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
GM CK Choi is retired in the sense that he does not have a full time dojang to run & he no longer oversees his businesses. But he is still very much involved in TKD, willing to go & help any TKD people or organizations that see a benefit it what he can offer. I would add that he has a really lot to offer!

True. I am surprised you said this itf? as here http://vimeo.com/6846374 GM Choi talks about Original Tae kwon-do and yet it is not what you are doing.
No need to be surprised Master White. We are simply using different definitions of what original TKD is. To me original TKD is what was left to us by the principle founder, Gen Choi, when he passed away in 2002. I believe & Mr. Flynch can correct me if I am wrong, but GM CK Choi defines original TKD as the system they devised & documented with the 1972 textbook of Gen Choi. Additionally, since GM CK Choi left the General in the 1980s, he does not approve of or like the TKD that Gen Choi & his next generation of followers made changes, revisions, additions etc to.

It is simply a different way to look at it. Others may say that original TKD is what they were doing in the ROK Army back in the 1950s, when they 1st started to systemize the Art. I can accept all & other definitions as well, if explained to me. However my personal definition is that which was left to us in 2002.

Top
#426097 - 03/27/10 05:22 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
GM CK Choi has his opinions on things and he will express them. He will always have strong feelings regarding the General going to north korea and focusing on SW in patterns. He gave up his main school and left the General in 1986 after 30 plus years.
I thought it was 1982?

Top
#426098 - 03/27/10 05:24 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
May I ask what a tul is? A pattern?
Tul is the Korean name for pattern, the way the ITF refers to a form, hyung, kata, poomsae etc.

Top
#426102 - 03/28/10 12:15 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Yes, 1982/83 was around the time. Did you ever study under CK Choi, ITF Unity?

Top
#426105 - 03/28/10 02:42 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Originally Posted By: flynch
GM CK Choi has his opinions on things and he will express them. He will always have strong feelings regarding the General going to north korea and focusing on SW in patterns. He gave up his main school and left the General in 1986 after 30 plus years.
I thought it was 1982?


I was told this date just yesterday by one of GM CK Choi's students who has trainned with him since the 70's and was at that school at the time and also taught for Sun Choi afterwards at the same school. I can double check on the exact timing if anybody is interested.

We might also need to be more specifc about when the incident with General Choi happened vs when GM CK Choi actually gave his school away.

Top
#426106 - 03/28/10 02:57 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
No need to be surprised Master White. We are simply using different definitions of what original TKD is. To me original TKD is what was left to us by the principle founder, Gen Choi, when he passed away in 2002. I believe & Mr. Flynch can correct me if I am wrong, but GM CK Choi defines original TKD as the system they devised & documented with the 1972 textbook of Gen Choi. Additionally, since GM CK Choi left the General in the 1980s, he does not approve of or like the TKD that Gen Choi & his next generation of followers made changes, revisions, additions etc to.


Yes that would be correct. When referring to patterns he would use his original 1972 encyclopedia with many notes in the margins. Aside from the obvious NK inspied pattern its that he find the changes (including sine wave and the various changes to techniques in the patterns) to be more impractical for fighting than the patterns already were. His comment would be demonstrate/show him how the new move is a better more practical technique for fighting and he will be happy to use it. To this date nobody has been able to backup the changes. In fact one of the heads of the current orgainizations said that he liked sine wave because it makes the patterns look nicer. Well you can see how that answer was received.


Edited by flynch (03/28/10 03:00 AM)

Top
#426107 - 03/28/10 05:54 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
May I ask what a tul is? A pattern?

As I understand it (perhaps I'm wrong), tul is a pattern in Chang Hon style TKD, opposed to 'poomse' of WTF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyeong
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#426114 - 03/28/10 02:16 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: flynch
GM CK Choi has his opinions on things and he will express them. He will always have strong feelings regarding the General going to north korea and focusing on SW in patterns. He gave up his main school and left the General in 1986 after 30 plus years. He was so offended by the General's actions he gave up his life's work and his lively hood. But he never quit Tae Kwon Do he just did not want to be a part of the ITF under General Choi and he would have nothing to do with the WTF. Until the General's death GM CK Choi was mainly concerned with practising and passing on to his close students the Tae Kwon Do he learned, helped create and taught from the mid 50's Please remember he does have the No 5 turtle plaque, he was the first heavy weight champion and nobody has ever questioned his help with Ge-Baek or his contributon to Tae Kwon Do.

To be fair to GM CK Choi he is allowed to express his opinions. It is also the case that (rightly or wrongly) many refer to the current style of ITF as "north korean". That does not make it north korean but it is a fairly common label used today. It is unfortunate that of all the positive things he has done and has tried to do people focus on this issue.

I have said for over 6 years now that GM CK Choi will work with any orgainization or individual to help them with Tae Kwon Do. This had included the ITF-V (he has met with Master Tran on several occassions and has been asked to comment on issues) the ICTF, the WTA, independants etc.

GM CK Choi is focused mainly on the fighting side of Tae Kwon Do but he recognizes that traditional patterns are important for many people but views them as more for general exercise and tradition. If pressed he does practise the pre-SW (no need to debate the merits of either) version of the patterns without north korean inspired political names and if asked he is willing to debate anyone as to the merits of his opinions on the matter.

As he sees it the TAGB does practice the patterns in a manner which is more consitant with his training methods.

While I do not know anything about the TAGB they stepped up to the plate and scheduled a series of seminars with GM CK Choi and he truly enjoyed it. Good for them. GM CK Choi does not want to be just sitting on a chair somewhere handing out trophies or meeting for golf tournaments he want to teach Tae Kwon Do and more specfically sparring techniques


Sir(flynch),
I had no objection with GM Choi I don't know how this got read into this? I have no problem with Gm Choi's opinion or anyone else having an opinion. We do live in a supposed free society.

I did make note of itfunity's post because by many of his previous postings on the net one cannot be practicing original, true or proper tkd unless the doing ITF circa 2002 with their version of the "sine wave".
Quote:
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?
To me & I think for Master Weiss, it would be a school that is registered & up to date with 1 of the ITFs or major ITF like orgs. They keep current by attending seminars & tournaments, getting their certification through applying the standard syllabus, wear the proper ITF dobok, follow Gen Choi's books & teachings etc.
GM Choi's idea is different in that he calls this N Korean TKD and not correct. I just found the post surprising on itfunity's part.

Also

If you write a curriculum in 1972 but change it or amend it and number of times over the years then it is not the same curriculum in 2002 or 2010!!! Period. If things are altered, added, modified etc. it is not the exact same! The itf, gtf, wta, uitf, ictf, puma, tagb, and numerous of other organizations use the 1972 book as a base but are all the same? All are a version of Chan hon.

The Bottom Line:

In my opinion is that we all are practicing Taekwon-do! We are all one Big Happy Disfunctional Family!
_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

Top
#426129 - 03/28/10 07:51 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I appreciate it but no need to call me sir you have far more experience in martial arts than I do.

My comments were general in nature and not directed at anyone specifically. They just express my level of frustrstion with this big happy disfunctional family as you put it and many of the comments and emails I have received directly over this and other issues over the years. So much so I know almost exactly how people are bound to think depending on which org they belong to or who their instrcutor is. There are exceptions but they are rare.

It seems people tend to focus on the negative instead of getting on with things again just a general comment.

GM CK Choi is in his later part of his life and I just tell him when he asks my opinion. Go out and teach as many people as you can for as long as you can because you have something valuable to share with all.

There is just so much political wrangling between schools, practitioners, orgs and most of all between seniors who should know better (jmho).

Nothing I can do about GM CK Choi's references to ITF and NK but understanding his experiences with TKD may help see his perspective which still largely revolves around the experiences of the mid 80's. His reference is not new and not unique. There of course will always be differences of opinion. You are entitled to your view point as well.

I can see both sides of it.

Your point about the ciriculum I have no issue with as I started in TKD in the 80's with sine wave and I clearly don't do either the sine wave or the original style correct as I am constantly reminded. But I do them because I like too with no illusions that they are the way to self defense. I have always seen TKD just like other arts as a system. Meaning that there are multiple components that work together to lead to success.

I think ideally GM CK Choi would welcome any advances in training techniques that assist in develping the quality of fighting but would like to keep the patterns as they were originally introduced. His 1972 encyclopedia has many custom changes and/or corrections and his addition of the sparring patterns are a unique feature of his trainning.


Edited by flynch (03/28/10 08:03 PM)

Top
#426130 - 03/28/10 07:59 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
We are one big family, and we're definitely dysfunctional, but we're also definitely NOT happy.

Top
#426142 - 03/29/10 02:10 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: flynch
I appreciate it but no need to call me sir you have far more experience in martial arts than I do.

My comments were general in nature and not directed at anyone specifically. They just express my level of frustrstion with this big happy disfunctional family as you put it and many of the comments and emails I have received directly over this and other issues over the years. So much so I know almost exactly how people are bound to think depending on which org they belong to or who their instrcutor is. There are exceptions but they are rare.

It seems people tend to focus on the negative instead of getting on with things again just a general comment.


Absolutely!

Quote:
GM CK Choi is in his later part of his life and I just tell him when he asks my opinion. Go out and teach as many people as you can for as long as you can because you have something valuable to share with all.


Definately! GM Choi has much to offer the world of TKD!

Quote:
There is just so much political wrangling between schools, practitioners, orgs and most of all between seniors who should know better (jmho).


So true!

Quote:
Nothing I can do about GM CK Choi's references to ITF and NK but understanding his experiences with TKD may help see his perspective which still largely revolves around the experiences of the mid 80's. His reference is not new and not unique. There of course will always be differences of opinion. You are entitled to your view point as well.

I can see both sides of it.


I can understand and appreciate his point of view. I've met many GM and Masters who think the same.

Quote:
Your point about the ciriculum I have no issue with as I started in TKD in the 80's with sine wave and I clearly don't do either the sine wave or the original style correct as I am constantly reminded. But I do them because I like too with no illusions that they are the way to self defense. I have always seen TKD just like other arts as a system. Meaning that there are multiple components that work together to lead to success.

I think ideally GM CK Choi would welcome any advances in training techniques that assist in develping the quality of fighting but would like to keep the patterns as they were originally introduced. His 1972 encyclopedia has many custom changes and/or corrections and his addition of the sparring patterns are a unique feature of his trainning.


Sorry, my point on the curriculum was more pointed to others but I again agree that sparring patterns and such can be great benefits to a curriculum.


Regards,
_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

Top
#426170 - 03/30/10 10:20 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
His comment would be demonstrate/show him how the new move is a better more practical technique for fighting and he will be happy to use it. To this date nobody has been able to backup the changes. In fact one of the heads of the current orgainizations said that he liked sine wave because it makes the patterns look nicer. Well you can see how that answer was received.
I don't want to be in the position of defending the patterns from a SD or practical POV because I like GM CK Choi do not find much practical use for them, never did. To me they have always been about the Art, the beauty side of the MA & they do look nicer to me as well. In fact when you compare them to Taek Kyon movements, they have more similiarity. SW is the most misunderstood & most critiqued aspect by those who don't grasp it more deeply.

Top
#426172 - 03/30/10 10:43 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
I did make note of itfunity's post because by many of his previous postings on the net one cannot be practicing original, true or proper tkd unless the doing ITF circa 2002 with their version of the "sine wave".
Quote:
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?
To me & I think for Master Weiss, it would be a school that is registered & up to date with 1 of the ITFs or major ITF like orgs. They keep current by attending seminars & tournaments, getting their certification through applying the standard syllabus, wear the proper ITF dobok, follow Gen Choi's books & teachings etc.
GM Choi's idea is different in that he calls this N Korean TKD and not correct. I just found the post surprising on itfunity's part.
Also
If you write a curriculum in 1972 but change it or amend it and number of times over the years then it is not the same curriculum in 2002 or 2010!!! Period. If things are altered, added, modified etc. it is not the exact same! The itf, gtf, wta, uitf, ictf, puma, tagb, and numerous of other organizations use the 1972 book as a base but are all the same? All are a version of Chan hon.

This is not what I am saying. I think I try my best to be as consistent as I can. We are talking somewhat different things here. To me, original TKD is what was left to us by the founder, Gen Choi when he passed in 2002. Of course that is not the originally way it was done. We all should know by now that in Korea post occupation there was karate. In the military he for the most part relied on Chung Do Kwan instructors to set up the Oh Do Kwan as the gym for MA Training of the Army soldiers. From the start these instrcutors taught karate, much like they learned it in the civilian gyms (CDK). Over a period of time, the training came to include the other fighting systems that the soldiers were exposed to. Gen Choi's main contribution was the patterns he was designing to instill patriotism & show that his MA was different from the karate it came from. Problem was the forms were still performed in a karate like movement. Over the period of some 50 years he continued to evolve his TKD away from the karate roots. Some 20 years before he died, many of his most loyal & talented instructors left him because of his using TKD & the ITF for his political agenda. They left, but he continued to evolve his TKD. Some who left define his TKD as being original as it was around 1972. That is fine. I can see that definition. However it is not mine.

Original can mean at 1st or in the begining, at the start. However to me that was still just karate back then. Anyone can say that it was original when they left it. However to me, the principle founder was Gen Choi. So original is when he left it, or 2002.

There are many terms to define the same thing, ie Taekwon-Do, ITF TKD, Chang Hon TKD, thus making it sometimes difficult or somewhat confusing, just like Taekwon-Do & Taekwondo. To me there is also an original TKD, meaning that there was a name TKD applied to a system, that was 1st or originally developed in the ROK Army from 1954 forward, long before others even heard of, accepted or wanted to use the same name TKD & applying it to a different system, confusing I know, sorry

Top
#426173 - 03/30/10 10:49 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
Originally Posted By: flynch
Nothing I can do about GM CK Choi's references to ITF and NK but understanding his experiences with TKD may help see his perspective which still largely revolves around the experiences of the mid 80's. His reference is not new and not unique. There of course will always be differences of opinion. You are entitled to your view point as well. I can see both sides of it.

I can understand and appreciate his point of view. I've met many GM and Masters who think the same.
I agree as well & I also can understand. However I am not communist, nor do I support the terrible regime in NK. While I do know that my version or style of TKD is popular in NK, having no other TKD, it is also in some 100+ countries around the world. It was taken there only in 1980, long after TKD was 1st developed & after I started TKD. I also do not like or agree with the political use of the label NK TKD. To me that has political overtones & for me TKD should not be used politically.

Top
#426176 - 03/30/10 11:32 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
My problem with these debates is that the Cold War is long over, and North Korea (and Cuba) are lonely holdouts to a failed ideology. So I don't care about communist TKD versus capitalist TKD, because, as Bruce Lee says, a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch.

Furthermore, it's increasingly hard for me to care if one version of TKD is better than the other, or even if TKD lives or dies, because, for the masters and grandmasters, it's all about ego and money. Let's face it, if students have to pay money to bow to them, this doesn't quite encourage a person's pretentious attitude.

That said, I enjoy the art and the exercise, and I do like the kicks and the communal feeling in most schools, so I am, in a way, still a Taekwondofan.


Edited by TaekwonDoFan (03/30/10 11:33 AM)

Top
#426195 - 03/30/10 06:05 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
What always frustrated me was when ITF-ers wrote in some of the MA mags about how 'waist-twisters' weren't doing 'true TKD', as the General taught it.

Considering many of those they were aiming at had learned under the general or his close masters (like Master Rhee Ki Ha)it made one want to ask what they had been taught if it wasn't 'true TKD'.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#426197 - 03/30/10 09:34 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
You see they really are both doing the TKD as the General taught it. It is just a matter of time.

The original (1972) version people say they are doing the original way and that there was no need/reason to change. the sine wavers point to the General's more advanced application of science to the developement of power in the updated techniques.

I moved recently and went to the local ITF-V school given my interaction at the time with them through GM CK Choi. I exlained my situaton to the 5th degree instructor and he said that it was OK that I could come to his school and he would be happy to update my techniques to bring me up to speed with updated TKD. Writely or wrongly I took this in a negative way. I just wanted to train 10 minutes from home instead of an hour but I did not necessarily feel my techniques needed updated. Maybe they could use it but that was not the basis to begin.

The thing is that everyone tries to put everyone else down to show the legitimacy of thier own version.

But if we agree that patterns have little to do with fighting and are a form of exercise then it shouldn't really matter how they are done.

Which ever version is fine we just need to stop saying that one is superior to the other or one is more correct than the other.

nb I still won't do Juche though


Edited by flynch (03/30/10 09:43 PM)

Top
#426199 - 03/31/10 12:45 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:
I explained my situation to the 5th degree instructor and he said that it was OK that I could come to his school and he would be happy to update my techniques to bring me up to speed with updated TKD.


I assume your only talking about forms/patterns correct? Otherwise, what exactly about your techniques needed updating? Did they not function right in the first place?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#426207 - 03/31/10 03:11 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Well I did not ask and maybe I should have but I assumed he was talking about the patterns as he never saw me train.

As for my techniques I would say they are on the slower side but have a decent amount of power. But I recognized the averageness of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOo3MB0426s

Top
#426208 - 03/31/10 03:25 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I'm getting my flexibility back, and my kicks are getting better, but I still have to work at it.

With my high kicks, I can now spar with a short person - or perhaps I should say, vertically-challenged person. LOL.


Edited by TaekwonDoFan (03/31/10 03:25 AM)

Top
#426212 - 03/31/10 06:22 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
My problem with these debates is that the Cold War is long over, and North Korea (and Cuba) are lonely holdouts to a failed ideology. So I don't care about communist TKD versus capitalist TKD, because, as Bruce Lee says, a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch.

Yes the "Cold War" is over. But with Korea it is at an all time height of tension, reference to the SK Navy ship that sank in the waters close to the disputed border with NK, that NK never accepted the UN designation for. This is fact & it does impact TKD politics more than people suspect.

Top
#426213 - 03/31/10 06:26 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
You see they really are both doing the TKD as the General taught it. It is just a matter of time.

The thing is that everyone tries to put everyone else down to show the legitimacy of thier own version.

But if we agree that patterns have little to do with fighting and are a form of exercise then it shouldn't really matter how they are done.

Agree totally. For me patterns are about art & the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you think yours looks better, good for you. As far as generation of power within them with fundamental movements in isolation, whatever helps you best, good luck

Top
#426214 - 03/31/10 06:28 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
@Flynch

exactly, this whole "mine is bigger than yours... oops, sorry, better than yours' thing is damned annoying.

As a non-ITF affiliated Chang Hon practitioner I've trained with a number of different clubs for a variety of periods (a few weeks, months, years)and genrally I've had no problem with people trying to impose on me.

WTF clubs... no problem... just don't do those head strikes.
PUMA... OK, no problem.

Even a hard-core ITF club, they didn't try to impose the SW onme (although they might have insisted on me developing over time)and even let me wear my non-ITF dobok.

Mind you, they did tell me to stop kihapping and go 'tsss'. That, and they expected me to know the ITF rituals for beginning and finishing a class (I didn't/don't). Rather embarrassing when I was sometimes the highest grade in the class (1st dan). I offered to stand at the back, as a guest, but they insisted on me being where the rank dictated.

Eventually I turned up with a red belt and explained to the trainer that it wasn't good for the kids to see a Black Belt making all these mistakes, when they were supposed to be taking example from the higher grades. He was surprised that I was prepared to do this and said he didn't think it necessary, but thanked me and accepted my decision.

Guess what... that day I was the only red belt in the class... and still the highest grade!!!!

Otherwise, i have mainly met very open-minded and agreeable people in TKD. It saddens me that some of the people we should be looking to for examples should be looking the other way themselves.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#426224 - 03/31/10 10:55 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
My problem with these debates is that the Cold War is long over, and North Korea (and Cuba) are lonely holdouts to a failed ideology. So I don't care about communist TKD versus capitalist TKD, because, as Bruce Lee says, a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch.

Yes the "Cold War" is over. But with Korea it is at an all time height of tension, reference to the SK Navy ship that sank in the waters close to the disputed border with NK, that NK never accepted the UN designation for. This is fact & it does impact TKD politics more than people suspect.


Absolutely. I have always said we should use military means to liberate the North. But no master is going to side with North Korea these days, so, in that sense, international politics have nothing to do with the fragmentation of ITF TKD.

Top
#426235 - 03/31/10 05:28 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
flynch

Was that your foot that broke those 3 boards?

This thread has totally turned into one of those karate threads were they discuss forms. And all because of the sign wave? How about discuss how you put that sign wave to use in sparring. If it can be. At least if it can be done the same way its done in the patterns.

This is something that never happens in Olympic style schools since the training is focused on being functional for sparring.

Flynch if that is your kick, i just have to say

"Boards don't hit back"
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#426236 - 03/31/10 05:51 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
OMG are you serious...they asked you to hiss instead of kihap? That's super picky.

Following the class rituals that's okay. But your kihap should be something that comes from within and it's usually unique. Usually people put their own comfortable spin on it. It's like a private trade mark.

Did you really have the nerve to say that to the instructor?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#426237 - 03/31/10 06:00 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: TeK9
OMG are you serious...they asked you to hiss instead of kihap? That's super picky.


Yep, the senior instructor took me aside and said (in Polish), "In TKD, it isn't 'huuuah!' it's 'tssss'." The thing was, all the kids were giggling. I'd been training in non-ITF clubs and WTF clubs, so this was new to me.

Originally Posted By: TeK9
Following the class rituals that's okay. But your kihap should be something that comes from within and it's usually unique. Usually people put their own comfortable spin on it. It's like a private trade mark.

Did you really have the nerve to say that to the instructor?


Well, I was a guest, so I didn't really think it was polite to argue (and I couldn't speak any Polish at the time, anyway).
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#426239 - 03/31/10 06:55 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: trevek]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
A master said we should shout, "Ai yah!" And get the "Ai" before the "yah". smile

Top
#426243 - 03/31/10 08:37 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Absolutely. I have always said we should use military means to liberate the North. But no master is going to side with North Korea these days, so, in that sense, international politics have nothing to do with the fragmentation of ITF TKD.

I couldn't disagree more. International politics have more to do with the ITF fragmentation than probably any other factor. Gen Choi used TKD & the ITF to further his political agenda. This is what was a major factor in the breaking up of the ITF. The inter-Korean politics is also a big factor with the ITF & WTF issues as well. Very complicated situation, but it is most definately international politics that has played such a role for far too long in TKD

Top
#426246 - 04/01/10 12:56 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: TeK9
flynch

Was that your foot that broke those 3 boards?

This thread has totally turned into one of those karate threads were they discuss forms. And all because of the sign wave? How about discuss how you put that sign wave to use in sparring. If it can be. At least if it can be done the same way its done in the patterns.

This is something that never happens in Olympic style schools since the training is focused on being functional for sparring.

Flynch if that is your kick, i just have to say

"Boards don't hit back"


Yes but it was 4 boards and sometimes the fourth boad ricochets and then you have to dodge out of the way...lol

No you can't/don't use sine wave in sparring thats the point of the discussion. The sparring patterns are taught as an addition and in a way address this issue.

Top
#426247 - 04/01/10 12:59 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
We are taught not to make noise and to disguise our breath.

No hisses and no Kiaps

Top
#426252 - 04/01/10 03:08 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: flynch
We are taught not to make noise and to disguise our breath.

No hisses and no Kiaps


Has that always been the case? I mean, even in Japanese karate, they have the kia. WTF dojangs resound with the sound of kihapping and the TAGB used to use them at the end of the tul (whereas ITF say the name of the tul).
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#426267 - 04/01/10 05:29 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
No I think it is a GM CK Choi thing only. His theory is more like you train like you fight. So when you do patterns or any techniques you should breath out on each technique but not be obvious about it. You will breath out through your nose.

He thinks that in fighting having uncontrolled breathing its a tell tail sign that somebody is tired and you would just be giving a smart fighter an additional piece of info to use against you.

If you walk around brething in and out with an obvious noise somebody could more easily time and position thier strike while your breathing in and wind you. He says that is his personnal experience from all his years fighting both in sport and on the street while being a bouncer.

Top
#426268 - 04/01/10 05:42 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
GM Choi has ALWAYS said that you take your opponent out with on or two blows, so you shouldn't have time to get out of breath.

But he did have substantial experience on the street, so, unlike many high-ranking dans in TKD, he knows what he's talking about.

Top
#426270 - 04/01/10 05:59 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
There seems to be a contradictory here. If you want to train to be street effective as a fighter and if your motto is "fight as you train". Then why is there so much emphasis on patterns? And why have an exaggerated move such as the sign wave?

I am not disputing whether the sign wave works or not. I am simply referring to the exaggerated move that is down during the performance of patterns.

And why focus on pattern training instead of two man drills and free sparring? These are the best ways to prepare for physical confrontation.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#426272 - 04/01/10 06:38 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
TKDfan

Yes in self defense a situation should be over in a matter of seconds if you only use techniques that have been developed to be delivered with full power but in sparring matches they last longer.

TeK9

There is not an emphaisis on pattern trainning with TKD taught by GM CK Choi that is the whole point of this thread. They are only done as a traditional exercise and it has nothing to do with fighting hence his focus on the sparring patterns shown in the reference interviews.

Top
#426285 - 04/02/10 06:33 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
There seems to be a contradictory here. If you want to train to be street effective as a fighter and if your motto is "fight as you train". Then why is there so much emphasis on patterns? And why have an exaggerated move such as the sign wave?
Ok one must realize that ITF TKD is a SD art form. While its primary physical purpose as per its principle founder is SD, it also places more emphasis on its use in building a more peaceful world while striving to build positive character traits in its students. With that in mind, one must understand that ITF TKD is NOT simply a combat street SD system, but rather a way to a better overall life. With that concept, it can possible be as effective in concentrating on street SD skills, as it has much more than it is trying to impart to its followers. So if one wants to learn strict SD for the street, then one's training MUST reflect that sole or primary goal.

Originally Posted By: TeK9
I am not disputing whether the sign wave works or not. I am simply referring to the exaggerated move that is down during the performance of patterns.
To someone who has trained with & strived to learn more fully SW, I can attest that for me it is a no brainer that it works by helping to build more power. In fact it is only 1 aspect of the 6 factors of the theory of power. However that does not mean that it will take the form in the street or in the ring that it does while training in isolation with fundamental movements. It is a theory. Please compare it to learning how to shoot a gun. There are many principles that one adheres to on the range when learning how to fire a gun. For example, stance, breath control, trigger pull or squeeze, sight alignment etc. However that is training on the range. In most gun battles, one simply draws their weapon & points in the direction of the threat & fires away. Boxers I believe train in the same 6 factors of the theory of power that those in ITF TKD do. They might not label it the same & use it in the same proportions or degrees, but I believe it is all there. But just like a street gun battle, a street fight does not allow for all factors to be implemented as they can be in the isolation of training with the fundamentals.

Originally Posted By: TeK9
And why focus on pattern training instead of two man drills and free sparring? These are the best ways to prepare for physical confrontation.
Well again, ITF TKD is more than just SD. So its system must take time for all aspects of it. However when devoting the time to SD & realistic fighting, then that is just the manner that should be followed. JMO

Top
#426310 - 04/03/10 02:37 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Yes, 1982/83 was around the time. Did you ever study under CK Choi, ITF Unity?


Funny who reads these boards.

I rec'd a phone call last night.

GM CK Choi did not include the ITF pattern set after 1982 in the information he taught his students.

This corresponds with the General's unilateral decision to go to North Korea. It also corresponds with the ITF and WTF merger committee meeting held in Vancouver. BC that year.

GM CK Choi still held classes and taught Tae Kwon Do at his school in Vancouver unitl 1986, but the focus was on fighting techniques. While I was not there I have talked to people who were and I understand the training was quite difficult. Fighhting/sparring was full contact for those who wanted.

Top
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga