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#426102 - 03/28/10 12:15 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Yes, 1982/83 was around the time. Did you ever study under CK Choi, ITF Unity?

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#426105 - 03/28/10 02:42 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Originally Posted By: flynch
GM CK Choi has his opinions on things and he will express them. He will always have strong feelings regarding the General going to north korea and focusing on SW in patterns. He gave up his main school and left the General in 1986 after 30 plus years.
I thought it was 1982?


I was told this date just yesterday by one of GM CK Choi's students who has trainned with him since the 70's and was at that school at the time and also taught for Sun Choi afterwards at the same school. I can double check on the exact timing if anybody is interested.

We might also need to be more specifc about when the incident with General Choi happened vs when GM CK Choi actually gave his school away.

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#426106 - 03/28/10 02:57 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
No need to be surprised Master White. We are simply using different definitions of what original TKD is. To me original TKD is what was left to us by the principle founder, Gen Choi, when he passed away in 2002. I believe & Mr. Flynch can correct me if I am wrong, but GM CK Choi defines original TKD as the system they devised & documented with the 1972 textbook of Gen Choi. Additionally, since GM CK Choi left the General in the 1980s, he does not approve of or like the TKD that Gen Choi & his next generation of followers made changes, revisions, additions etc to.


Yes that would be correct. When referring to patterns he would use his original 1972 encyclopedia with many notes in the margins. Aside from the obvious NK inspied pattern its that he find the changes (including sine wave and the various changes to techniques in the patterns) to be more impractical for fighting than the patterns already were. His comment would be demonstrate/show him how the new move is a better more practical technique for fighting and he will be happy to use it. To this date nobody has been able to backup the changes. In fact one of the heads of the current orgainizations said that he liked sine wave because it makes the patterns look nicer. Well you can see how that answer was received.


Edited by flynch (03/28/10 03:00 AM)

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#426107 - 03/28/10 05:54 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
May I ask what a tul is? A pattern?

As I understand it (perhaps I'm wrong), tul is a pattern in Chang Hon style TKD, opposed to 'poomse' of WTF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyeong
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#426114 - 03/28/10 02:16 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: flynch
GM CK Choi has his opinions on things and he will express them. He will always have strong feelings regarding the General going to north korea and focusing on SW in patterns. He gave up his main school and left the General in 1986 after 30 plus years. He was so offended by the General's actions he gave up his life's work and his lively hood. But he never quit Tae Kwon Do he just did not want to be a part of the ITF under General Choi and he would have nothing to do with the WTF. Until the General's death GM CK Choi was mainly concerned with practising and passing on to his close students the Tae Kwon Do he learned, helped create and taught from the mid 50's Please remember he does have the No 5 turtle plaque, he was the first heavy weight champion and nobody has ever questioned his help with Ge-Baek or his contributon to Tae Kwon Do.

To be fair to GM CK Choi he is allowed to express his opinions. It is also the case that (rightly or wrongly) many refer to the current style of ITF as "north korean". That does not make it north korean but it is a fairly common label used today. It is unfortunate that of all the positive things he has done and has tried to do people focus on this issue.

I have said for over 6 years now that GM CK Choi will work with any orgainization or individual to help them with Tae Kwon Do. This had included the ITF-V (he has met with Master Tran on several occassions and has been asked to comment on issues) the ICTF, the WTA, independants etc.

GM CK Choi is focused mainly on the fighting side of Tae Kwon Do but he recognizes that traditional patterns are important for many people but views them as more for general exercise and tradition. If pressed he does practise the pre-SW (no need to debate the merits of either) version of the patterns without north korean inspired political names and if asked he is willing to debate anyone as to the merits of his opinions on the matter.

As he sees it the TAGB does practice the patterns in a manner which is more consitant with his training methods.

While I do not know anything about the TAGB they stepped up to the plate and scheduled a series of seminars with GM CK Choi and he truly enjoyed it. Good for them. GM CK Choi does not want to be just sitting on a chair somewhere handing out trophies or meeting for golf tournaments he want to teach Tae Kwon Do and more specfically sparring techniques


Sir(flynch),
I had no objection with GM Choi I don't know how this got read into this? I have no problem with Gm Choi's opinion or anyone else having an opinion. We do live in a supposed free society.

I did make note of itfunity's post because by many of his previous postings on the net one cannot be practicing original, true or proper tkd unless the doing ITF circa 2002 with their version of the "sine wave".
Quote:
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?
To me & I think for Master Weiss, it would be a school that is registered & up to date with 1 of the ITFs or major ITF like orgs. They keep current by attending seminars & tournaments, getting their certification through applying the standard syllabus, wear the proper ITF dobok, follow Gen Choi's books & teachings etc.
GM Choi's idea is different in that he calls this N Korean TKD and not correct. I just found the post surprising on itfunity's part.

Also

If you write a curriculum in 1972 but change it or amend it and number of times over the years then it is not the same curriculum in 2002 or 2010!!! Period. If things are altered, added, modified etc. it is not the exact same! The itf, gtf, wta, uitf, ictf, puma, tagb, and numerous of other organizations use the 1972 book as a base but are all the same? All are a version of Chan hon.

The Bottom Line:

In my opinion is that we all are practicing Taekwon-do! We are all one Big Happy Disfunctional Family!
_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

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#426129 - 03/28/10 07:51 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I appreciate it but no need to call me sir you have far more experience in martial arts than I do.

My comments were general in nature and not directed at anyone specifically. They just express my level of frustrstion with this big happy disfunctional family as you put it and many of the comments and emails I have received directly over this and other issues over the years. So much so I know almost exactly how people are bound to think depending on which org they belong to or who their instrcutor is. There are exceptions but they are rare.

It seems people tend to focus on the negative instead of getting on with things again just a general comment.

GM CK Choi is in his later part of his life and I just tell him when he asks my opinion. Go out and teach as many people as you can for as long as you can because you have something valuable to share with all.

There is just so much political wrangling between schools, practitioners, orgs and most of all between seniors who should know better (jmho).

Nothing I can do about GM CK Choi's references to ITF and NK but understanding his experiences with TKD may help see his perspective which still largely revolves around the experiences of the mid 80's. His reference is not new and not unique. There of course will always be differences of opinion. You are entitled to your view point as well.

I can see both sides of it.

Your point about the ciriculum I have no issue with as I started in TKD in the 80's with sine wave and I clearly don't do either the sine wave or the original style correct as I am constantly reminded. But I do them because I like too with no illusions that they are the way to self defense. I have always seen TKD just like other arts as a system. Meaning that there are multiple components that work together to lead to success.

I think ideally GM CK Choi would welcome any advances in training techniques that assist in develping the quality of fighting but would like to keep the patterns as they were originally introduced. His 1972 encyclopedia has many custom changes and/or corrections and his addition of the sparring patterns are a unique feature of his trainning.


Edited by flynch (03/28/10 08:03 PM)

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#426130 - 03/28/10 07:59 PM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
We are one big family, and we're definitely dysfunctional, but we're also definitely NOT happy.

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#426142 - 03/29/10 02:10 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: flynch
I appreciate it but no need to call me sir you have far more experience in martial arts than I do.

My comments were general in nature and not directed at anyone specifically. They just express my level of frustrstion with this big happy disfunctional family as you put it and many of the comments and emails I have received directly over this and other issues over the years. So much so I know almost exactly how people are bound to think depending on which org they belong to or who their instrcutor is. There are exceptions but they are rare.

It seems people tend to focus on the negative instead of getting on with things again just a general comment.


Absolutely!

Quote:
GM CK Choi is in his later part of his life and I just tell him when he asks my opinion. Go out and teach as many people as you can for as long as you can because you have something valuable to share with all.


Definately! GM Choi has much to offer the world of TKD!

Quote:
There is just so much political wrangling between schools, practitioners, orgs and most of all between seniors who should know better (jmho).


So true!

Quote:
Nothing I can do about GM CK Choi's references to ITF and NK but understanding his experiences with TKD may help see his perspective which still largely revolves around the experiences of the mid 80's. His reference is not new and not unique. There of course will always be differences of opinion. You are entitled to your view point as well.

I can see both sides of it.


I can understand and appreciate his point of view. I've met many GM and Masters who think the same.

Quote:
Your point about the ciriculum I have no issue with as I started in TKD in the 80's with sine wave and I clearly don't do either the sine wave or the original style correct as I am constantly reminded. But I do them because I like too with no illusions that they are the way to self defense. I have always seen TKD just like other arts as a system. Meaning that there are multiple components that work together to lead to success.

I think ideally GM CK Choi would welcome any advances in training techniques that assist in develping the quality of fighting but would like to keep the patterns as they were originally introduced. His 1972 encyclopedia has many custom changes and/or corrections and his addition of the sparring patterns are a unique feature of his trainning.


Sorry, my point on the curriculum was more pointed to others but I again agree that sparring patterns and such can be great benefits to a curriculum.


Regards,
_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

Top
#426170 - 03/30/10 10:20 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
His comment would be demonstrate/show him how the new move is a better more practical technique for fighting and he will be happy to use it. To this date nobody has been able to backup the changes. In fact one of the heads of the current orgainizations said that he liked sine wave because it makes the patterns look nicer. Well you can see how that answer was received.
I don't want to be in the position of defending the patterns from a SD or practical POV because I like GM CK Choi do not find much practical use for them, never did. To me they have always been about the Art, the beauty side of the MA & they do look nicer to me as well. In fact when you compare them to Taek Kyon movements, they have more similiarity. SW is the most misunderstood & most critiqued aspect by those who don't grasp it more deeply.

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#426172 - 03/30/10 10:43 AM Re: Alex Gilles interviews GM CK Choi [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
I did make note of itfunity's post because by many of his previous postings on the net one cannot be practicing original, true or proper tkd unless the doing ITF circa 2002 with their version of the "sine wave".
Quote:
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?
To me & I think for Master Weiss, it would be a school that is registered & up to date with 1 of the ITFs or major ITF like orgs. They keep current by attending seminars & tournaments, getting their certification through applying the standard syllabus, wear the proper ITF dobok, follow Gen Choi's books & teachings etc.
GM Choi's idea is different in that he calls this N Korean TKD and not correct. I just found the post surprising on itfunity's part.
Also
If you write a curriculum in 1972 but change it or amend it and number of times over the years then it is not the same curriculum in 2002 or 2010!!! Period. If things are altered, added, modified etc. it is not the exact same! The itf, gtf, wta, uitf, ictf, puma, tagb, and numerous of other organizations use the 1972 book as a base but are all the same? All are a version of Chan hon.

This is not what I am saying. I think I try my best to be as consistent as I can. We are talking somewhat different things here. To me, original TKD is what was left to us by the founder, Gen Choi when he passed in 2002. Of course that is not the originally way it was done. We all should know by now that in Korea post occupation there was karate. In the military he for the most part relied on Chung Do Kwan instructors to set up the Oh Do Kwan as the gym for MA Training of the Army soldiers. From the start these instrcutors taught karate, much like they learned it in the civilian gyms (CDK). Over a period of time, the training came to include the other fighting systems that the soldiers were exposed to. Gen Choi's main contribution was the patterns he was designing to instill patriotism & show that his MA was different from the karate it came from. Problem was the forms were still performed in a karate like movement. Over the period of some 50 years he continued to evolve his TKD away from the karate roots. Some 20 years before he died, many of his most loyal & talented instructors left him because of his using TKD & the ITF for his political agenda. They left, but he continued to evolve his TKD. Some who left define his TKD as being original as it was around 1972. That is fine. I can see that definition. However it is not mine.

Original can mean at 1st or in the begining, at the start. However to me that was still just karate back then. Anyone can say that it was original when they left it. However to me, the principle founder was Gen Choi. So original is when he left it, or 2002.

There are many terms to define the same thing, ie Taekwon-Do, ITF TKD, Chang Hon TKD, thus making it sometimes difficult or somewhat confusing, just like Taekwon-Do & Taekwondo. To me there is also an original TKD, meaning that there was a name TKD applied to a system, that was 1st or originally developed in the ROK Army from 1954 forward, long before others even heard of, accepted or wanted to use the same name TKD & applying it to a different system, confusing I know, sorry

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