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#420491 - 06/29/09 01:50 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
So you are saying that the energy pull works by the human body developing enough magnetic force to 'pull' the receiver? Surely then this magnetism will effect inanimate objects too... to my knowledge no-one has ever produced telekinetic abilities under verified conditions and I'm unaware of anyone producing anything other than very low level electrical naturally - I'd be interested in any studies claiming this.
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#420498 - 06/29/09 06:32 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Gavin]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
No. You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I said that "it feels like a very, very weak magnetic connection". I am trying to describe what it feels like for you - I am not saying that it turns you into a human magnet, just trying to describe the effect. If I were to hold a weak magnet up in front of my metal refrigerator door, I would feel a similar pull.

I have no way of knowing what causes the effect. I do know that multiple energies have been measured coming from the hands of healers and martial artists. Experiments have also shown that the energies from a healer's hands have an effect on the person they are directed toward. I also know that this works for me and for people I have just met in classes and demonstrations. I know what I do when I do an energy pull and I know that I have no intent to deceive or defraud.

Regarding voltages, there have been several experiments that measured the voltages coming off of the hands of healers and I think some of them are pretty significant. One that comes to mind is the "Copper Wall Experiment" conducted by Elmer Green, Ph.D. - the online info states that they recorded voltages as high as 200v. Just do a search on “Copper Wall Experiment”. There are several other studies related to emissions from healers in the books I mentioned earlier.

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#420501 - 06/29/09 09:46 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Dave5504 --

Have you ever heard of the "Amazing Randi" or his million dollar challenge? You may want to look into this.


http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html


-John

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#420504 - 06/29/09 10:24 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: JKogas]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
Yeah right...somehow I don't think the Amazing Randi is going to pay 1 mil for something this simple.

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#420511 - 06/30/09 02:14 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
I am trying to describe what it feels like for you - I am not saying that it turns you into a human magnet, just trying to describe the effect. If I were to hold a weak magnet up in front of my metal refrigerator door, I would feel a similar pull.

I have no way of knowing what causes the effect.


Now this is a little more honest. My issue with what you were saying was that it is physics - its not, at least not in the currently understood realms. The non-touch thing has always interested me but I have not yet see anyone 'pulled' who has not been in a situation where they have been mentally prepped for the 'experiment' before hand.

As for martial artists this, even if it is true, has absolutely no use whatsoever because it only works on 'open' people. Using my 'intent' I have thus resisted any of these ki/qi/chi tricks.

Within a healing environment there is some very interesting work being done within the realms of myofascial release looking at possible minute intercelluar communications - for example the piezoelectric charge emitted from the collagen in connective tissue when it is stimulated by heat, pressure or electrical stimulus - this minute electrical charge causes a breakdown of the molecular bond between the cells loosening the tissue. In the cranial field there have been some interesting theories on the communication between therapist and receiver but for the most part they [censord] of physics is very plausible within our current scientific understanding.

Pulling someone across a room without touching them is something confined to the realms of fantasy and tricksters IMO and is of no practical use to the martial artist, even as an 'intent' training exercise.
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#420530 - 06/30/09 01:15 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
Yeah right...somehow I don't think the Amazing Randi is going to pay 1 mil for something this simple.

You'd be surprised:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CASghTzNhc

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#420531 - 06/30/09 02:01 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: DeadlyKnuckles]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
Gavin -
Your reply indicates that you find my previous postings are dishonest. So far I have accurately described the process used and have offered numerous references to answer your questions. How is that dishonest?

You say you have an interest in the “non-touch thing” and also use the words “even if it is true”. You seem to have a curiosity about such things. Given your curiosity, you should ask yourself how you will recognize someone who is delivering a genuine message if you begin the discussion by characterizing them as “dishonest”, “tricksters” and categorize their statements as in the “realms of fantasy” and “tricks”.

Were the references I gave invalid? Of course not, you have not had time to read Oschman’s works, or McTaggarts. If you had then you would have defied the laws of physics wouldn’t you? Rather than investigate, you have chosen to attack my character. Such tactics have no place in a reasonable discussion.

When I happened upon the initial question that sparked this thread, all I observed was several derisive comments with few attempts to answer a legitimate question. As long as you are involved in internal martial arts these questions will continue to arise. It seems to me that the closed minded response this is receiving does nothing to advance anyone’s knowledge of how to answer the original question.

Since I am able to do this technique and have never had difficulty in teaching others to do it, I choose to try to find a rational explanation. I cannot speak to your personal level of experience. I can tell you that this works for me without any pre-preparation. I simply ask people to stand “like a reed in the wind” and then either pull or push them. I do not tell them what is going to happen or what to expect. I have done this at demos with people I have never met. As long as they offer no resistance it works. It works more dramatically on some people than others. It does not work on inanimate objects.

Since I have no access to sensitive measuring devices I have no way to confirm how this works. It seems to me that a very logical explanation is a simple interaction of electro-magnetic fields. This then follows the rule of attraction and repulsion – from physics. If you are not familiar with this then simply Google “strong to weak rule of attraction repulsion” and you will find several references. Again, I have no way to measure and confirm this, but it is a logical explanation and despite your denials – it is physics.

I had hoped that others on the forum might have an interest in actually discussing the possibilities of how such techniques work.

Your assertion that this technique “has no use whatsoever” is totally wrong. The martial arts are entirely about energy and balance. Every exchange in combat or self-defense is about the balance of energy between two opponents. The largest most encompassing theories of energy and balance come from quantum physics. While it is often true that most of us begin our martial arts studies in the realm of Newtonian physics, that does not mean we should limit ourselves to that arena. Any technique that enhances your knowledge of how energy can be use to interact with an opponent is of value to the martial artist.

Your reference to the piezoelectric properties of connective tissue is right on. Why can you not continue the discussion in that vein? These properties are what led Oschman to coin the phrase “The Living Matrix”. This is the thread that should be followed, because it presents the body as an energetic unit. This will lead to an understanding of how a martial artist might take advantage of the energetic properties of the human body.

If anyone wants to ask a legitimate question or participate in an honest discussion, I’d be glad to answer.

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#420532 - 06/30/09 02:03 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Dave5504 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
DeadlyKnuckles -
Since this can be explained by the interaction of electromagnetic fields, it does not qualify for the Amazing Randi challenge. As I noted - this is a simple thing to do.

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#420544 - 07/01/09 04:25 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
DeadlyKnuckles -
Since this can be explained by the interaction of electromagnetic fields, it does not qualify for the Amazing Randi challenge. As I noted - this is a simple thing to do.


Dave when I referred to dishonest this wasn't a character assassination merely an objective observation on how you are explaining things and in this above quote you've gone back to explaining things with the 'electromagnetic fields' again after admitting perviously that you didn't know what this energy is. Saying it 'feels' like a magnetic pull is an honest description of the sensation, saying it is explainable by electromagnetic fields is misleading (what I meant by being dishonest). If it were explainable by electromagnetic fields then you should be able to demonstrate this on inanimate objects... if you could then Randi (although I find the guy rather disagreeable) would instantly feather your hand with gold.

I had a quick look at that guys website you link to previously and I'm afraid that I can't see anything that backs up your ability to remotely pull people. Yes the body and universe itself have many subtle energies that make up the whole and the field of biodynamics is making huge leaps in documenting holistic bodily communications through the fluids and tissues of the body, but again this doesn't validate your claim in any sense. My example of the piezoelectric properties of collagen is a prime example - I use many myofascial release techniques with my clients but to achieve a release within the tissue via this mechanism requires an appropriately applied sustained pressure spanning anything from a couple of seconds up to minutes - well outside of the nanosecond windows of opportunity open to the martial artist in combat.

Going back to you being able to demonstrate this ability by only having to suggest 'feel like a reed' to be able to get them to 'pull' them... the mental imagery of the reed blowing in the wind is already an autosuggestion. Also usually very unintentionally those demonstrating this ability unkonwingly create an environment whereby those being pulled know that they are expected to do something. Here is a classic example by the UK based illusionist Derren Brown who does a 'chi' demo far more impressively than any chi master I've witnessed by martial artists or 'healers':

http://formosaneijia.com/2009/derren-browns-mind-punch/

This is a trick. I have many fun little tricks that I often slip into demonstrations for a bit of fun but I always tell the audience how to do them. For example yesterday I done the demonstration used by many top masters including the late Cheng Man-ching whereby they resist full power pushes with one arm... I had ladies in their 70's doing it within about 30 seconds. On monday I had a class of 11 year old girls doing it as well.

In my mind all this no-touch stuff demonstrates within the martial arts is how the mind can be played with on a very subtle level to produce very powerful results if you allow yourself to be played. Unfortunately people end up buying all this stuff and the following happens when they challenge reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Non-touch stuff is not a demonstration of internal skill. The only way to really know if someone has real skill is to cross hands with them.


Edited by Gavin (07/01/09 04:51 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#420559 - 07/01/09 07:44 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Wow... 2 years on and we're STILL discussing this? Why?

Originally Posted By: Dave5504
I said that "it feels like a very, very weak magnetic connection".
Well... therein lies your conundrum.... How can a very, very weak magnetic connection have any sort of martial use or application? Unless your opponent (or complicit student) is equally highly "sensitized" to such phenomena, I can't see how any of this would be practically useful martially or otherwise.

Personally, I think you're barking up the wrong tree... and draw your attention to The Feats of the Magnetic Girl Explained.

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