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#420140 - 06/15/09 05:24 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: Turnipdudette]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Jeet Kune Do was one man's concept of taking what is effective to each individual martial artist and learning to wash out the rest that does not work for them in order to fight for real.




I was actually going to say the same thing - every fighter seems to have an 'inner JKD'. It takes a lot to recognize and acknowledge it though, especially if said fighter is clinging to the conservative side of whatever art they practice.

MMA as a style may be sport oriented, but I like it for SD better than the over-marketed RBSD styles you see out there. MMA guys seem to be more in touch with their hard work and are not so obsessed with looking badass in camo and hand wraps. However, I HATE the sport MMA scene. There's nothing JKD about it IMO. It's too much dog and pony show - a tough guy masturbation fest.

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#420141 - 06/15/09 05:26 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

However, I HATE the sport MMA scene. There's nothing JKD about it IMO. It's too much dog and pony show - a tough guy masturbation fest.





It certainly is not what it used to be.

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#420142 - 06/15/09 09:36 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
yea I actually try not to mention MMA because it just brings up stereotypical images in mind. People start thinking too much of the UFC. And like mentioned in old posts, people don't really understand the difference between MMA as a sport and MMA as a training method.

Sometimes when people as what I do, I just say a bit of everything or kung fu, if I'm lazy.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#420143 - 06/16/09 05:15 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

However, I HATE the sport MMA scene. There's nothing JKD about it IMO. It's too much dog and pony show - a tough guy masturbation fest.




Do you mean the 'public' MMA scene, like the viewing public who don't actually practice?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420144 - 06/16/09 07:00 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: Ames]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Pretty much the whole shebang. The fat guys in food courts wearing Tapout shirts, the sports bars featuring UFC PPV nights, the fighters who talk trash like WWF guys (who are acting), the fixed fights, the lack of any real skill in the minors (IFL anyone?), seeing less and less Georges St. Pierres and more Kimbos, the crappy melodramatic reality shows in which they showcase what spoiled b1tches pro fighters can be when they're not in the ring... need I go on?

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#420145 - 06/16/09 08:47 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
maybe because lots of people dont really spend time to develop a strong base? GSP trained in different MAs before jumping into MMA, Same with Lyoto Machida, BJ Penn, etc etc.

they spend time training "basics" before combining them into MMA training. MMA training that you find is just way too generic imo. People seem to specialize AFTER they go MMA rather than before
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#420146 - 06/17/09 12:15 AM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ShikataGaNai wrote:
Quote:

...need I go on?





No, I think that pretty much summed it up.


IExcalibui2 wrote:

Quote:

maybe because lots of people dont really spend time to develop a strong base? GSP trained in different MAs before jumping into MMA, Same with Lyoto Machida, BJ Penn, etc etc.

they spend time training "basics" before combining them into MMA training. MMA training that you find is just way too generic imo. People seem to specialize AFTER they go MMA rather than before






This topic has been brought up before and I think it's a great one for debate. My take on it is this, to get to the highest levels of the sport, I believe a fighter must have all three games (standing, clinch and ground) present, obviously. But I think he needs to be a master of one. Again, that is to get to the highest levels. So whatever; be a master wrestler, master striker or master jits guy...you should be really good at one of those games and have that serve as a primary game plan or objective.

That said, many of today's fighters are versatile and can do so many things. GSP...what's his base? Can anyone really tell anymore? I'd swear it was wrestling, but his base is striking. Of course, that guy is a freak as well.

But as for MMA training being generic, that's true to a degree, but I think it also has to be. The reason its generic is because kickboxing, wrestling and jiu-jitsu are requirements anymore. You step in the cage without one of those skills and it's going to be a quick night's work. Thus everyone has those skill-sets. Those have become the "base" delivery systems that not only do MMA fighters need, but Average Joe as well. Average Joe just doesn't need to be world-class at any of them.

In truth, the simpler and smaller the repertoire for Average Joe, the better. As long as he keeps his training integrated, he's good to go. In fact, it could be argued that one doesn't even need mixed martial arts for self-defense. If one has a good clinch game, that's all he or she needs.

Just my thoughts.

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#420147 - 06/17/09 01:09 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

In fact, it could be argued that one doesn't even need mixed martial arts for self-defense. If one has a good clinch game, that's all he or she needs.




I can see that, except for one situation - when your opponent is much bigger than you. It's really hard to get to a clinch on someone who is taller and broader than you (especially if you're short and skinny like me), unless they've initiated the clinch. I personally like WC for just that type of situation, but how would you adjust a clinch game to take on goliath?

Also, I gotta say I'm impressed with how MMA skills stick with you, even after devoting all my training time to a completely different style. I recently joined an MMA school that focuses more on self defense (and sparring ) and I found that after four years of not training it, it's still there. Now that's cool!

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#420148 - 06/17/09 03:01 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Lets take one bit of that at a time.

Quote:


I can see that, except for one situation - when your opponent is much bigger than you. It's really hard to get to a clinch on someone who is taller and broader than you (especially if you're short and skinny like me), unless they've initiated the clinch.





Well, what I said should be seen as a general statement. If one has the time and wherewithal, all ranges are needed. The idea behind what I said is this; if you can move around and strike, you can also probably run (again, a general statement). If you can't, it may either mean that someone has surprised you and/or grabbed you (and thus they have initiated that clinch). Then a clinch game is needed, here for defensive purposes. And offensive or defensive, there is no difference; a clinch game is a clinch game. But my thinking is that if you're free to move around, you are also probably free to run.



Quote:

I personally like WC for just that type of situation, but how would you adjust a clinch game to take on goliath?






If you have a delivery system that works for you, great. I think that's all that really matters. As far as how you adjust the clinch game to take on larger individuals, probably the all-around best way is to train the clinch with really large training partners if possible. Because technically speaking, there are no major adjustments. That may sound weird, but it's true. It's all about seeking the "center". Being a wing chun guy, that should feel very natural to you. In the clinch, you're wanting an inside (center) position because of the leverage advantage. Coupled with head position and good posture, you can achieve a high degree of leverage, which is obviously what you want when facing a behemoth.

There probably are minute adjustments. The biggest thing is understanding the positions of the head, arms and legs in order to stay safe from HIS takedown attempts as well, but, this again has a lot to do with position. It just requires training and help from an experienced coach or coaches.

You may end up in the clinch and use it defensively (avoiding the takedown and being hit) or offensively (looking for the takedown or striking from positions) but like I said, it's just a matter of what your preference and experience levels are with it. If you're just looking to use the clinch defensively, it really doesn't take all that much training or time to learn. It's just a matter of learning how to use those positions in a defensive manner.

Again, the best way to handle large individuals in the clinch is to train with them. That is the best approach no matter the range (standing, clinch or ground) because there is no substitute for actual experience. You learn best by doing and having those really big training partners helps you to make the fine adjustments that work best for each individual. But no matter what, when skill is equal, size matters. Dealing with big boys who also have skill is no picnic. Couture found that out against Lesnar. I think the key is training so much and so efficiently that you develop a high degree of skill. Then it's like everything else; you take your chances on the street and hope that that big guy you have to fight doesn't know what he's doing in the clinch.

Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. That's the way of life.


Quote:



Also, I gotta say I'm impressed with how MMA skills stick with you, even after devoting all my training time to a completely different style. I recently joined an MMA school that focuses more on self defense (and sparring ) and I found that after four years of not training it, it's still there. Now that's cool!





I think that's true. I have to admit that I haven't worked my ground game (jits) in over six months now. But I rolled a bit this past weekend and realized that although a little rusty from a timing perspective, the technique was still there. I guess it is like riding a bike huh?

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#420149 - 06/17/09 11:19 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
definitely like riding a bike. Same case with me because I don't participate in randori too often. The only major problem for me would be to try to remember some of the submissions that I learned. Playing for position is pretty simple but sometimes certain chokes and cranks I just don't remember, so i have to opt for the basic RNCs and americana's.

But the fact that I can still gain position, is good enough for me because I'd probably want to G&P the guy more than anything else.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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