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#420130 - 06/12/09 09:58 PM Differences in JKD
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Differences in JKD

I Just thought I'd throw this rant up and see what sticks. This thread is not only about the differences in JKD (Original or Extra-crispy) but in methods of instruction, coaching and training. I just thought I would give my experiences as an instructor to point out some of the stranger things I've seen over time. Everyone is welcome to chime in.


Many times, I've had people coming into my gym who were obviously "looking" for JKD and didn't "see" it. What I mean is, they were looking for guys standing around flat-footed, doing dead patterns of either chi-sao or reference point trapping. And here we were, moving around up on our toes, slipping, bobing, weaving, punching, covering, crashing, tying-up, etc.

Its like they were thinking, "Oh...all this...'sport' stuff...there's no JKD in here." Some would leave because they didn't find jkd. That was perfectly ok with me because I won't compromise what I do.

But it's just strange. I've been asked about trapping, chi, internal energy, chakras, etc. People really want to believe. Whatever, we just trained.

It has occured to me that without fail, nearly everyone who wandered in looking for JKD (trapping, OJKD, etc) wanted to learn a "deadly style" without having to SWEAT or without having to spar, which is absurd.

People can be really weird when it comes to martial arts. Where else would you find people who want to be "str33t l3th@l" without breaking a sweat? Then as soon as you even IMPLY that sparring is done, they break OUT into a sweat and fall apart faster than a two-dollar suitcase. Yet.....they want "JKD".

Lee would roll over in his grave.

You put hands on people and they seriously get bent out of shape. Clinch?! Forget about it. But, what about "trapping". Look, trapping in the classical sense will flat get your block knocked off. However, trapping works if you have a wrestling base.

Chi sao? Can you say, "arm drag"? But tell them you do hand-fighting and pummeling instead of chi sao and they disappear. Strange. People want to learn an 'art', but they don't necessarily want to learn how to 'fight'. Yet Lee saw JKD as being about a "return to the original freedom".

Tell THAT to people though and it goes right over their heads. I think this is because most see only what they want to see and ignore the rest (especially the parts about aliveness, daily decrease, fixed patterns, etc).

If you have had any strange experiences, share them here. Likewise, state what you feel have been positive experiences.

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#420131 - 06/14/09 06:04 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
Kentao5 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
I have had people interested in JKD. Most do not realize it takes a lot of work and experience to discover their "truth."
You have those that want the classical mess even though its packaged as JKD. I see examples of supposedly JKD and all it is, is a traditional 1-step and no resistance. Then there are those that say whoa, this is the real deal and what I need. I have 2 students from a "traditional" background and a Black Belt rank. So, they had some skills but lacked reality application. Happy to say they seeked the truth and have been very successful in the jobs when it gets physical.

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#420132 - 06/14/09 08:52 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: Kentao5]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
my strange experiences would just be that some people dont think what I do is JKD simple because I don't attend a JKD school or take JKD classes. I told them, I would like to take JKD classes to learn more but I don't see it as a NECESSITY to attend one. Btw, this is online.

So they pretty much just continue to tell me that I can't learn JKD, which to me is more of a mental than physical thing, without taking classes and question how I train. My main art would be Southern Praying Mantis, which shares a lot in common with Wing Chun, so a lot of basic principles like economy of motion and 5 ways of attacking are covered. And I even said "your JKD is not MY JKD." We all have different interpretations of martial arts. Bruce Lee left us a way to gain our individual fighting styles, we weren't mean to copy him and train as he does. Even then, when you learn from a JKD instructor, you're only getting that instructor's interpretation of fighting..not your own. So they post up their questions about directness, daily decrease, ABDs, etc. and I answer them honestly. Yes I practice these things, why wouldnt I?

they kind of got at me because I trained in other arts like Muay Thai and some BJJ. But in my mind...how is 1 single art supposed to teach me how to fight in all ranges? It cant and unless an instructor is an expert on both grappling and striking, then usually people would have to look else where to supplement their skill set. But I guess my point flew over their heads and they said "just because you took other arts and added them into your skill set doesnt mean its JKD." Yea I never said that, but hey its also part of the equation (and a very big part imo).

Other people started to understand what I was saying, while 1 guy just kept shaking his head, saying that I needed to attend class because I didnt know what I was talking about. Maybe he felt threatened because I'm like half his age.

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#420133 - 06/14/09 10:45 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: IExcalibui2]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
My "JKD" would resemble MMA more than it would resemble BL.

Sure, the common element between him and me is boxing and judo, but that's it.

My 'JKD' is mainly principle's of CMD(Rodney King's interpretation of boxing), Keysi KFM, Baji quan, Muay Thai and Judo, and then, they are my 'interpretations'.

I would be the opposite of what most OJKD would call JKD. But how am I not following his guidelines?

Aliveness, daily decrease, simplification and economy of motion. Finding the most effective techniques yet simplest to do the required work. Getting to the heart of the subject, and not beating around the bush.

I usually get goaded as well, however, I'm closer to BL than any of the modern day 'BL wannabe' could ever be.

I got almost all that he trained;

Trapping? Check. (Clinching, which is a form of hand immobilization technique but extends to most of the upper body.
In-fighting? Check. (Mostly Rodney King's boxing, with some Keysi and Bajiquan elbow techniques thrown in. Have mostly removed the need for bobbing and weaving due to good defense structure.)
Grappling? Check. (Judo, in it's purest form. Throw them, lock them. Don't spend too much time on the ground.)
Kicking? Check. (Mostly Kyokushin side kicks and MT low kicks as stop hits from long range.)

My focus is to keep it purely SD, which means getting entangled on the ground isn't a good option, but it still has to be trained. Emphasis is to get down dirty and get up as fast as possible.

1 on 1, I do have a tendency to teach GnP tactics, which is getting your opponent down on the ground and giving them a good ol' fashioned beating.

Vs multiple opponent, I have a tendency to promote being able to maintain balance when being assaulted, and moving from one position to another in order to make a b-line to safety. (This is heavily taught in KFM, staying in balance, and not falling to the ground in order to avoid being stomped on.)

I've been trying to incorporate things such as Wing Chun's blocking, but Rodney King's material is so simple and yet effective, I do not really think it's neccessary to develop anymore on this area at this stage.

The only area that could use development is striking and stop hitting. Other than that, clinch, grappling, defense and position is good.

And trust me. Anyone who trains with me, it's demanding. Like the USMC say; I train them hard, so when it's the real deal it's easy.

~Donnie out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#420134 - 06/14/09 10:45 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: Taison]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
and I don't even use the name "JKD"...

I think BL would be proud.

~Donnie out again.
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#420135 - 06/15/09 07:46 AM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

and I don't even use the name "JKD"...






I wouldn't have a problem with that. I only use the term to inform the general public about what we do so they have some concept about what our objectives for training are.

Otherwise the term rarely comes up. There's really no need for it to.

Just a few thoughts....there should be a certain notion of what occurs at a good JKD concepts school. I think certain things have to be in place:

First off, everything has to be based around functional, adaptive training. People need to be training realistically and throughout all ranges. This sounds like MMA (and it really is) but the difference is in HOW you train.

Training should be in the "smarter, not necessarily harder" category (though there is a time and place for harder training). You should establish the right environment so people can learn without fear. This requires progressive resistance and varying the intensity levels. This is something not always present at the local "Hard-Ass, Hard-core MMA Gym".

Think I'm kidding? I've heard enough stories from other legitimate and experienced instructors and coaches, including those about people getting choked out during their free "INTRODUCTORY WEEK"! Trust me, it happens and is out there.

But if you're not training in all the ranges, or if your training lacks realism, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I've seen people train striking where they think they are training "light" (typical training level), yet they aren't making contact with their partners. If their partners had their gloves down away from their face, the punches wouldn't even land. You're essentially training yourself to miss and your partner's defensive timing and distancing will be off as well. In other words, you're just wasting time and aren't training functionally. This doesn't mean you have to hit hard or injure your partners. It just requires an understanding of how connect with weight, but without slamming forward. Thus good coaching is a must (as it always is). (Thanks must be given here to JerryWetzel and Rodney King for really showing me some excellent training methods.)


Secondly, I think you have to train for the street, obviously (or not so obviously as the case may be). If you're training without some understanding of the realities of what happens on the street (namely, weapons, multiple opponents and different environments), then I don't think you are training with realism. This most certainly wouldn't be the height or aim of JKD.

Such would be the case if you were training strategies for sport MMA (or any other combat sport for that matter). Taking a mount position and pummeling someone into pink mist sounds like a smart plan until a second accomplice comes up and hits you in the back of the head with a baseball bat. But always training to take the mount without this understanding, is really more of a sport strategy (not saying it couldn't be used well in a real fight however).

Likewise, always looking to take someone to the ground is another sport strategy that can backfire in a street encounter. However with the incredible popularity of BJJ and MMA now, I believe you will see even the untrained attempt to do this in real fighting. I've seen kids mimicking this in my own neighborhood! I watched a kid (14-15 years old) playing around with some slightly younger (and smaller) kids by setting his "hooks" and applying a sloppy looking RNC . Many many people, if not coached otherwise, are all training themselves to take every fight right to the ground anymore. The thing is...it often works. But I still can't say it's always the appropriate thing to do.

People who train with a sport mentality only, may also look to obtain the clinch and in the process, pull themselves right onto a knife. Or, you also enter into biting and grabbing/maiming distance. Again, I'm not saying the clinch is bad. But if you always hit the clinch without training or allowing for groin strikes and other such attacks, you can leave yourself open and vulnerable in my opinion.

Let me say that the sport "engine" is required for training. However, using it while keeping an eye on the street realities is important for the above reasons I believe.

Third, I think you have to train with and against weapons - even if you don't plan to carry. The idea of JKD is adaptability. Weapons are a reality on the street. If you never train for this, the consequences are obvious and understandable. I don't think you can call what you do, JKD unless you are preparing for reality, in it's totality, and this has to include weapons, as well as multiple opponents. Multiple opponent training isn't something you're going to see a lot of at MMA gyms, but many experienced people will tell you that this is a reality on the street. To not prepare for this isn't the way of JKD, IMO.

Fourth, I think you also have to prepare yourself for different environments as well. This doesn't mean that you have to be "crazy" about it and, buy camo fatigues and night vision devices. Unless you're a cop, there's no need to get unbalanced and take yourself out into situations that don't fit your lifestyle, etc.

However if you stop and consider for a second where most of us train (clear, empty space, plenty of lighting, no furniture or other obstacles in the way, etc), you can begin to see another "limitation" (there is that key word again) that we train INTO ourselves. I know that a lot of fights that I've seen happened at night, not in broad daylight. I've seen them happen on steps, in gravel parking lots, next to and in between cars, on or near pool tables, you name it. Maybe you're on a flat surface such as a street, and then trip over a curb, etc? I think this is a fair point to make, and is included merely to illustrate the reality of the world away from the training hall (ring, cage, etc).

The point that I'm making with this post is that certain requirements have to be in place if you truly understand JKD. Some are saying now that JKD is just MMA, etc. But this is true only in a very limited sense. JKD is about being without limits. I think if you read and take into consideration the points that I tried to make here, that may bring things into a clearer light. I just think that many believe they are doing JKD - even the OJKD guys - who don't realize that they are actually going against the essential nature of what JKD is. They are training limitations into themselves. The same goes for many MMA practitioners as well if you think about it.

Just my opinion.

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#420136 - 06/15/09 11:46 AM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
You should write a book. I mean that seriously, not sarcastically.

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#420137 - 06/15/09 11:46 AM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
Turnipdudette Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 10
Jeet Kune Do was one man's concept of taking what is effective to each individual martial artist and learning to wash out the rest that does not work for them in order to fight for real.

MMA is a modern term that discusses the use of various martial art techniques in a sport environment that is based on limitations, weight classes and rules.

Both are different ideas and neither are a martial art but rather concepts.
_________________________
http://www.tbotech.com/

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#420138 - 06/15/09 01:10 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I agree John, I think you should write a book/training manual.

One thing I wanted to pull out of your post was this:

Quote:

Or, you also enter into biting and grabbing/maiming distance.




This is very true. When I was bouncing I saw a very skilled combat athlete set up the clinch perfectly, and then clinch, but his head placement, though fine for the ring, allowed access to his ear. He had it bitten and torn half off. Little 'tweaks' like this to your overall game (like head placement, altering takedowns so the the knees stay off the ground as much as possible) are integral to using what you know for self defense.

Quote:

The point that I'm making with this post is that certain requirements have to be in place if you truly understand JKD. Some are saying now that JKD is just MMA, etc. But this is true only in a very limited sense. JKD is about being without limits.




I pretty much agree with you. The only thing I would add is that I still think that an MMA gym can bring someone 'up to speed' quickest and give them a good foundation. After this, I think working weapons and multiple attacker scenarios is absolutely necessary. Of course everyone is different, but for me, I found jumping right into this stuff without that base to be too challenging, and in the end fruitless.

My two cents.
--Chris

And seriously John, start writing that book man.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420139 - 06/15/09 05:21 PM Re: Differences in JKD [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I agree John, I think you should write a book/training manual.




Contrary to popular opinion, I don't know if what I have to say hasn't already been said elsewhere. I'd hate to be redundant. I think there is an angle however that I may explore in the near future. Thanks though.


Quote:



One thing I wanted to pull out of your post was this:

Quote:

Or, you also enter into biting and grabbing/maiming distance.




This is very true. When I was bouncing I saw a very skilled combat athlete set up the clinch perfectly, and then clinch, but his head placement, though fine for the ring, allowed access to his ear. He had it bitten and torn half off. Little 'tweaks' like this to your overall game (like head placement, altering takedowns so the the knees stay off the ground as much as possible) are integral to using what you know for self defense.





Just a thought here, but its just my opinion if that someone gets their ear bitten, they didn't have proper head placement - at least not for the street as you mentioned. Head placement is all about "pocket" control. But the fact that the guy was even vulnerable simply illustrates the point about the "limitations" imposed by sport training only. Hell, all you have to do is supplement some of your training time with realistic "foul" practice. And while I'm not saying you actually have to bite your partner(s), you can mimic this to some degree so that you become cognizant of where you're vulnerable and how.



Quote:

The only thing I would add is that I still think that an MMA gym can bring someone 'up to speed' quickest and give them a good foundation. After this, I think working weapons and multiple attacker scenarios is absolutely necessary. Of course everyone is different, but for me, I found jumping right into this stuff without that base to be too challenging, and in the end fruitless.





I wouldn't disagree with that necessarily. I think that it can be argued that there are examples of where weapons training facilitates the empty hand (FMA for example). But I'm completely with you in that there is no substitute for a functional base of skill. Scenarios can change, but skilled individuals can and will "flow" with the changes better than someone without.



Quote:


And seriously John, start writing that book man.





I'm trying man. I just hit a wall with it. I'm not a "trained" writer by any stretch of the imagination...

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