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#420063 - 06/10/09 02:27 PM The "Classical Mess"
Ames Offline
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Pretty much everyone in JKD right now is likely aware of the ongoing feud between the OJKD folks, and JKDC group. Terri Tom's recent book is a good example of the OJKD peoples argument: namely that Bruce intended JKD to be made up of three arts, those being:

1. Western boxing
2. Fencing
3. Wing Chun

Despite the obvious questions such as where the hell the kicks came from, and the grappling that they admit Lee had worked into the curriculum towards the end of his life, I think of greater interest, to me at least, is did or did Lee not, intend for JKD to be a constant work in progress? Did he intend on creating a static system, in which, as the OJKD people claim, one's own 'attitude' was what was meant by making JKD your own? Or was it more like Inosanto suggests, where one learns Jun Fan (the core technques that Bruce Lee worked out), but then experiments with it and alters it (sometimes dramatically) in order to make it your own?

Important in this is the concept of the Classical Mess that Lee discusses very often in the Tao of JKD. Am I wrong to think that by claiming that JKD was only ever boxing, fencing and wing chun, that that makes static a thing that was supposed to always change with the times?


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420064 - 06/10/09 03:03 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
MattJ Offline
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I look at the JKD study of Inosanto and Hartsell, and have my answer. I'm not sure that those two (OJKD and JKDC) camps will ever be reconciled - I think one has to take a side. The OJKD argument seems diametrically opposed to Bruce's actual writings, IMHO.
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#420065 - 06/10/09 03:58 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Inosanto/Hartsell, definitely led the way and have the answer; agreed.

If anyone within the JKD community has never sparred or fought all-out, without range restrictions, they cannot "know" JKD. If they only know it from an intellectual point of view, they don't really know it.

Only when one has truly fought does the often cryptic writing of Lee make any real sense. Then not only is it clear, it's simple. Utterly simple.

Burton Richardson makes a great point about this mess saying, if people want "original" JKD, WHICH original JKD do they want? The Seattle phase? The Oakland phase? Or the L.A. phase? Each was different because Lee was constantly evolving (and would have continued to).

Fortunately, guys like Inosanto and Hartsell, two men who were very close to Lee, realize the importance of evolution and growth - while keeping the essence of what JKD truly is, very much "alive".

And there is that word ("alive") again. The whole enchilada is contained within that word. It just has to be understood.

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#420066 - 06/11/09 11:32 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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No two people fight exactly the same in any given concept based art, so even if you did rigidly adhere to the boxing, fencing, WC regimen as a core by the time you mixed them and 'made it your own' it could be unrecognizable from someone else who did the same. So both groups are essentially right and need to shut up about it all.
One thing confuses me though - how do you figure Terri Tom's book is indicative of the OJKD mentality? In her (long winded) book about the straight lead, she pretty much dismisses WC (along with Xing Yi and other) punching as wrong, which Lee never really said. Just curious.

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#420067 - 06/11/09 12:44 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Ames Offline
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edit:sorry this is such a long post! just have a lot to say about this book.

Quote:

One thing confuses me though - how do you figure Terri Tom's book is indicative of the OJKD mentality?




Here's how it seemed to me (I'm writing a review that I'll put up on the forum at some point). If you read the book, you'll note that very little actually goes into the specifics of the straight lead. The rest is occupied by putting the straight lead into its historical context (talking about Dempsey and Nadi), and then uses a lot of physics to 'prove' that the lead is the most efficient punch out there. Of course, that is bogus, because you can show the physics behind any technique, so showing that there is a physics equation does little to 'prove' anything. Then in the 'works cited' section at the end of the book, she uses Bruce Lee's writings to 'prove' Bruce Lee's theories! This wouldn't really strike me as a big deal, if it weren't for the fact that the subtext of the book is very much an attempt to undermine the JKDC camp through thinly veiled attacks and inuendo.

The second to last chapter finally brings to the surface what had been an undercurrent throughout the book. This is where Tom says, (paraphrasing) "JKD is not a mismatch of styles, it is not 27 arts, it is not Kali etc." Basically, this amounts to an outright attack on Inosanto, and Tom is constructing a classic strawman, because I've never once read nor heard in interviews Dan Inosanto say anything like this! In fact, he has been nothing but honest as to Bruce Lee's feelings towards Kali or Muay Thai!

Perhaps the funniest thing about the book are the sections where Tom illustrates her point (that Bruce Lee only ever was influenced by boxing, fencing, WC) with 'film evidence'. This is utterly stupid, if you look at those films you will also see (sometimes in the very next frame) kicking that came from a different source that those three arts, or grappling that came from Gene Lebell or Wally Jay! So if we were to go off 'video evidence' (which btw I don't think is the best way to get a sense of Bruce Lee's actual FIGHTING art) then Tom's thesis is totally disproved, as it becomes increasingly more obvious that Bruce Lee investigated other arts besides the three Tom mentions.

Quote:

In her (long winded) book about the straight lead, she pretty much dismisses WC (along with Xing Yi and other) punching as wrong, which Lee never really said.




Agreed, I've never read Lee outright dismiss WC punches. That being said, of course he did appear to make major modifications to the structure of them, those really drastically changing them to the point where they are a whole different beast, imo. But you are right in that Tom dismisses WC, claiming that at the end of his life Bruce had all but rejected it. Fine. But then why do so many other OJKD folks (say Jerry Poteet for example) teach so much trapping and so much WC? Is is possible that Ted Wong, who had a boxing background prior to studying with Lee, has himself taken what worked best for him, and rejected what did not? Or did Lee teach Wong skills that made sense for his already existing boxing base? Either way, I think it is a flawed argument that Wong is the 'most like Lee,' as, even going off other OJKD folks, Wong teaches a different curriculum! Also, I'd be interested to know where in boxing, fencing, or wing chun, one sees this kick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XdkXfvudk

Quote:

so even if you did rigidly adhere to the boxing, fencing, WC regimen as a core by the time you mixed them and 'made it your own' it could be unrecognizable from someone else who did the same.




Possibly. Yes, it would look somewhat different, but the point is that Lee seemed to grasp that what works today may not work tommorow, and that things need to evolve. The OJKD argument suggests that Lee's art should be set in stone, as it is the best one could hope for. Thus, they seem to be engaged in imitation, not making much their own. I've read some who claim that the OJKDer shouldn't train things like BJJ, because it deviates from Bruce Lee's art, and if you had the 'real' JFJKD, you would be able to stop a grappler, no probs.

Quote:

So both groups are essentially right and need to shut up about it all.





I don't totally agree. I think the politics thing is b.s. But at the same time, now there is the 'Bruce Lee Foundation' (which Tom sits on the board of) slinging mud at Inosanto in a very public way. What's funny is the majority of those that practice OJKD actually have their certificates from Inosanto, not BL. So yes, ideally it would be great for everyone to just let things go, and accept people see things differently, in the end the OJKD camp seems to be making a constant assault on the other camps (like JKDC and SBG) in very, very public ways...such as publishing books, regular articles in magazines like Black Belt, etc. Anyway, the politics thing is of little consequence to me. What bothers me is Tom's attempt to belittle and reduce Inosanto's role in JKD, for cheifly (I believe) monatary gain.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420068 - 06/11/09 03:51 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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Was Terri Tom ever authorized/certified by Lee to teach JKD? Of course not. Inosanto however was. From my understanding, he was one of three certified by Lee. One, James Lee is no longer living. Taky Kimura is older now and maintains a low profile. So, here is Tom "zooming in from oblivion" to slam Inosanto. Take that for what it's worth.

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#420069 - 06/11/09 05:22 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
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Totally, John. In the book, she attempts to set up Ted Wong as *the* student of Lee. Of course, it's just a coincidence that that is who she trained under

Talk about rewriting the history books.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420070 - 06/11/09 08:00 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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And no disrespect to Wong, but to my knowledge, only those three men were ever certified by Lee to teach jeet kune do (Taky Kimura, James Lee and Dan Inosanto.) Inosanto has long been the man to carry the torch.


-John

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#420071 - 06/11/09 08:05 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
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No, disrespect to Wong at all...I notice that it isn't HIM saying this B.S.

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420072 - 06/12/09 12:24 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Quote:

What bothers me is Tom's attempt to belittle and reduce Inosanto's role in JKD, for cheifly (I believe) monatary gain.




Wow. What little respect for Tom I had from reading her book (which I admit I skimmed alot of) I totally just lost, because she's yet another egotistical MAist publicly victimizing an old man - one I've had the good fortune to train under once, too

As for the JFJKD kick link - I think (but don't exactly know) that the particular sidekick made so popular by Lee is a modified WC sidekick. The chambering, leaning back and hip motion came from who-knows-where, but the heel thrust and footwork are exactly like the WC version when it's used with footwork or when closing the distance. You can even cross-step to cover more ground (sure you all know that).

So, do I have it straight - OJKD are all those people who train to move and execute techniques done by Lee, and look as MUCH LIKE HIM as possible while doing it, and JKDC people are like Vunak or Inosanto and are always looking for ways to push the philosophy in new directions?

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#420073 - 06/12/09 12:29 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

So, do I have it straight - OJKD are all those people who train to move and execute techniques done by Lee, and look as MUCH LIKE HIM as possible while doing it, and JKDC people are like Vunak or Inosanto and are always looking for ways to push the philosophy in new directions?






That would be correct.

By the way, does anyone know the reason why Lee wanted to close down all of his schools to begin with?

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#420074 - 06/12/09 01:58 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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To get to the other side?

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#420075 - 06/12/09 10:33 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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You know, one of the primary reasons he closed them down was because he essentially saw that people were trying to become carbon copies of HIM. Yet here was a man telling everyone, "your truth is not MY truth".

People are basically just clueless morons about this. The truth stares them in the face. But when martial arts becomes a theoretical process and is taken away from the "what is", you end up with garbage like this and people trying to make JKD into a "museum piece".

The reality of JKD is hidden in plain view. Lee didn't like "fixed forms" and spoke about it all the time. Yet we now have a group trying to trying to make JKD just that.

It right in front of them:


Quote:

"Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation".





But, the Foundation is solidifying it into "ONE" way and thus also a "fixed" limitation. This flies in the face of what JKD essentially IS; alive, simple, direct and in particular, 'non-classical'.

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#420076 - 06/12/09 01:57 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

But, the Foundation is solidifying it into "ONE" way and thus also a "fixed" limitation. This flies in the face of what JKD essentially IS; alive, simple, direct and in particular, 'non-classical'.





I agree. It's actually interesting (but sad) to see it happen.

But, to be balanced, lately some (by no means all) of the JKDC camp appears to be doing the same thing (to a lesser extent). The silat is an example with the djurus, and some places have a real lack of pressure testing. Again, by no means all as JKDC covers a really a pretty broad spectrum.

I'm not make a veiled reference to Dan Inosanto here. He seems to be doing his own thing. More I'm talking about his 'followers/devotees' (as different from his students). It makes me wonder what will happen once Inosanto passes, will these folks starting making static 'Inosanto Martial Arts'?

This all makes me wonder why it seems that so many, from both sides, are interested in turning it into a fixed form? Is it human nature?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420077 - 06/12/09 11:32 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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No Chris, I would agree with you that the JKDC crowd have largely missed the boat as well. The one thing that THEY seemed to have forgotten about was the concept of simplicity and daily decrease. Instead, they have taken the "buffet" approach (take a little of this, a little of that, some that over there, etc). That also flies in the face of quintessential jkd.

Regarding Inosanto's passing: I think it will be much like it is now; a small core of people who actually get it and a thundering herd of those who don't.

Is it human nature to turn things into fixed forms? I think so. Lee thought so as well saying:

Quote:

In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patterns of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a "pointer of the way" echoes.




Also:

Quote:

When you get down to it, real combat is not fixed and is very much "alive." The fancy mess (a form of paralysis) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead to nowhere.





Essentially, Lee felt that people had more confidence and faith in "systems" and styles than in themselves, thus the tendency to clinch to fixed forms, etc. I have experienced this myself with people who came to me wanting to learn Vunak's "RAT" system. It's really interesting.

Now I'm not saying it isn't worth learning the RAT or anything else, but just to do so and leave it at that is to cling to a very rigid form.

I have taught guys that and then led them into boxing - which they did begrudgingly. Though they were terrified by the thought of being hit (yet they want to be fighters).

They wanted a system that would essentially 'save them', instead of developing "alive" skill that would enable them to 'save themselves'...if that makes any sense. This very notion is at the heart of all "fixed" styles (particularly regarding OJKD here).

Why fix JKD to a rigid form (of only what Lee was doing at specific times) and yet by this very act, eradicate from JKD, Lee's very pioneering spirit?! It makes no sense.

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#420078 - 06/13/09 01:12 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Seems like the best way to understand JKD is to avoid JKD schools. IMO at least.

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#420079 - 06/13/09 01:21 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Ames Offline
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I wouldn't say that, no. John has summed it up pretty well here:

Quote:

They wanted a system that would essentially 'save them', instead of developing "alive" skill that would enable them to 'save themselves'..




I think what John is saying is it's more about finding a school that guides you toward the skills to express yourself combativly, rather than falling back on fixed forms, or enforcing a constant imitation of someone else.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420080 - 06/13/09 11:01 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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Exactly! JKD was initially supposed to guide one toward free and alive forms of self-expression, with general guidelines which were put in place to keep practitioners from becoming rigid, or, limited. Obviously that isn't what has happened with regard to OJKD.

A few dim-witted Bruce Lee "groupies" got a hold of it and decided that it wasn't about self-expression at all.

They wanted JKD to be about how you expressed Bruce Lee's expression. Thus in the process of deciding this, they turned it into just another "style".

IMO, this is really no different than any other truth. Looking back over the history of humanity, we see examples of where early creative thinkers (Buddha, Jesus and others) discovered certain truths that were then often corrupted, distorted and misinterpreted by the masses. Only a small minority seemed to truly grasp the essential message. JKD is really no different in that regard.

Well, Buddha wasn't Buddhist and Christ wasn't a Christian. They had merely discovered the truth and tried to tell others and "point the way". Lee said that, he was only a "finger pointing to the moon".

Which means, look to the MOON and not the frickin FINGER! Amazing how such simplicity can be lost on those so desperate for external forms of salvation (in this case, relying on a fixed "style" instead of individual self-expression). What is glaringly obvious is that Leeís OJKD followers have merely focused on the finger.

Such is life.



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#420535 - 06/30/09 05:03 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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OJKD is gone, IMO. Personally I feel it should be abandoned, as its contradictory not only to the founder but to the art itself.
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Lao Tzu

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#420542 - 06/30/09 08:42 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:
They wanted a system that would essentially 'save them', instead of developing "alive" skill that would enable them to 'save themselves'...if that makes any sense. This very notion is at the heart of all "fixed" styles (particularly regarding OJKD here).


Excellent point, John! It boggles the mind to think that people expect a system or style to do the work for them! But this is a common misperception of martial arts training in general. "I train, so I can kick ass!"

Unfortunately, that is only true if you are actually training by kicking people's asses. LOL.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#420546 - 07/01/09 07:13 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Right on Matt.


Chen Zen! What's up bro?! That's a good point about OJKD. But what I'm discovering is that the main problem may be the fact that such "arts" (like so many traditional arts) are taught in a linear fashion. I think that is essentially why so much material has been dropped by those who train functionally.

For example, I learned a lot of material coming up that I was taught in a specific manner. We called that 'training'. Yet when taught as it was, in a linear fashion, it never translated over to sparring or fighting, because fighting doesn't play out like that (is non-linear I suppose you could say).

When I abandoned linear style training (one technique, then another technique, then another, 'stacked' together) and only trained functionally, over some period of time, I was able to begin to put some of those techniques I had learned into the mix and have them actually work (one example being, the kenjit found in silat).

Through spending enough time boxing and wrestling, I managed to find the timing necessary to make it work. Not all of it mind you, or even a lot of it.

And I think that's one of the problems with training "arts" as they often are, in that linear fashion, as opposed to just teaching principles or adding techniques in here and there and having people just train it with aliveness. In fact, I believe that the linear approach often defines an art and people are loath to give that up.

Later I discovered that, perhaps, part of the problem was the cultural differences in the areas where these particular arts originated. And this may sound odd so it's just a theory but, here in the west, our timing (athletic, western boxing timing) could be different than those who say, taught silat in Malaysia or the Philippines and thus to make some of those things work, it has to be practiced with western boxing to develop the timing for use here. Does that make any sense? I'm just curious.

Just a thought.

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#420591 - 07/03/09 07:22 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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It makes perfect sense. It all comes back to aliveness in "training". I went through much of the same thing, as I used to train very traditional TKD. Later I worked o boxing and Muay Thai and the difference in training was frightening, and very eye opening. However, how do you train for functionality, and still keep the pure tradionalism, and can you? Personally I dont think its possible, but Im not a purist either so it doesnt bother me like it would, say a traditional karateka or judoka
_________________________
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#420593 - 07/03/09 08:39 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
...the difference in training was frightening, and very eye opening.


Yes, it can be, especially if you've never really experienced functional, alive training. It's even worse if you happen to wind up in a gym with an a-hole coach (in some of those cases, there may not be any "progressive" resistance).


Originally Posted By: Chen Zen

However, how do you train for functionality, and still keep the pure tradionalism, and can you? Personally I dont think its possible, but Im not a purist either so it doesnt bother me like it would, say a traditional karateka or judoka



What I have found is that there is always traditionalism in different forms. But I'm guessing you are referring to the more ritualistic practice, board breaking, hitting/kicking the air, line drills, kata, etc? If so, I would agree. I don't think you can have the best of both worlds. Well, perhaps you could, but you would really be cutting into your time.

It's like I have always said, if people love kata, great. Do it. Do everything and then include some functional, alive training as well. That works if you have endless time to train or, simply enjoy practicing dead patterns, etc. Hey you know, to each his own. Personally, I couldn't do it. I just can't. I can't even hardly practice the "RAT" (PFS-JKD drill).

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#420606 - 07/04/09 02:15 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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you can't split everything 50/50 I agree. But traditional training also varies depending on the instructor and on the art. I know this isnt exactly alive but I'm going to use Southern Praying Mantis as an example. But just to let you know, San Da/free fighting is supposed to be a part of ALL chinese martial arts. But you also start to free fight and spar(not all the time, I've sparred with my colleagues) in the later stages of training, a time frame "comparable" to once you get your black belt?

But Southern Praying Mantis employs A LOT of partnered drills. The drills are patterned so they arent really all that alive, but there is a bit of a resistance from your partner. The benefit I would say is that it becomes instinctive for you to learn how to block an on coming attack or stick to another person's arm or when there is a bridge you know how to manipulate the sticky hands to gain advantage because you've drilled it in your head 10000x times.

I personally noticed that I can repeat parts of those patterned drills when working on some exercises outside of my kung fu class. Just like how other arts have combinations, I think of the partnered drills as combos.

Again this is all part of the non-free fighting stage of my training. So when I do, one day, get to the San Da portion of the art, well I'd have a decent sense on how to move and react. And I feel my training is actually pretty traditional
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#420787 - 07/11/09 04:24 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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There isnt enough time for it for me either. Also, when I began to look at the economy of my movements, that threw out just about everything and really streamlined my striking to near nothing as far as volume of techniques, but this only improved my game. More time= better training
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#420790 - 07/11/09 06:13 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I still think you can train traditionally and for functionality. Just have to know how to use your time.

Its like weight lifting. There are intense days and then there are the less intense, "rest," cardio days. But no matter how you look at it you are still exercising everyday to better yourself.
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#426677 - 04/27/10 06:14 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: IExcalibui2]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I can't see how OJKD would be split between boxing, WC and fancing, as none of these have any real wrestling features, and Lee was familiar with wrestling/Judo enough to know its worth.

The OJKD fossilisation is interesting. Does anyone fell MMA is going the same way? It now seems MMA, which was originally about different styles fighting, has now become a kind of fixed system of BJJ and Muay Thai. You learn an MMA syllabus.
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#426719 - 04/28/10 06:24 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: trevek]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: trevek
Does anyone fell MMA is going the same way? It now seems MMA, which was originally about different styles fighting, has now become a kind of fixed system of BJJ and Muay Thai. You learn an MMA syllabus.


Marc Denny refers to Thai boxing, wrestling, BJJ as "Generic Cage Fighting". There is an MMA syllabus. Those arts simply have to be in place as it's difficult (near impossible) to compete without them as your foundation.

It will be what is done beyond those things that will set people apart (such as Lyoto Machida).

On that note, I was surprised to recently discover that Machida is a BJJ black belt! That came as a slight shock to me considering that he doesn't display the "normal" skill-set of a generic cage fighter. I mean, when do you really see the BJJ in his game? He's a really interesting example of what can be done beyond that generic game plan.

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#426757 - 04/29/10 10:35 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Phil Baroni.

He might not have the best record, but his boxing is quite nice to see. I mean a lot of people train boxing (Rashad!) but they don't really display much 'boxing' skills as Phil does.

-Donnie
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#426824 - 05/01/10 07:17 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I'll give Baroni this much, he isn't a conservative fighter. He'll often either light someone up or get lit up himself.

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#426835 - 05/02/10 04:19 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
HAHAHA.

I agree on that one.

-Donnie
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#426845 - 05/02/10 05:58 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: MattJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
By: Paul Vunak

Where does original JKD fit in?

When we say original JKD we are referring to the combined curriculum's of the Seattle, Oakland and LA Chinatown schools prior to Bruce Lee's death. We strongly believe that the original curriculum should be preserved and immortalized. In order to assure this for the past 25 years we have made it mandatory for all Phase 1 students to know the entire curriculum of original JKD. When I hear people asking which is better? Comparing original jkd to contemporary jkd(which is commonly called JKD concepts) I have to smile and scratch my head. You see, original JKD is contained within contemporary JKD. It would be like asking which is better, a Jab or Boxing? Since a Jab is contained within boxing, the question is moot. Another reason against comparing the two has to do with fairness to Bruce Lee. In order to even be competitive now a days, there are some simple pre-requisites one absolutely must have...

A clinch Game(Either the neck or the body)
Take down defense,
A Ground game.

The reason that none of these elements are in original JKD. Is because they didn't even exist prior to the first UFC which was 20 years after Bruce Lee's death.
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#426993 - 05/06/10 08:05 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: TeK9]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Paul Vunak is the first person that is able to answer the question without causing a rift between the two 'faction'. If only the TKD people could learn the same thing.

To be honest, that's how I view my 'style' when people ask. "What's stronger? MT or Judo?' my answer has always been 'why are you trying which one taste better, bread or butter?'

-Donnie out
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#427087 - 05/11/10 02:49 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: ShikataGaNai
[quote]
As for the JFJKD kick link - I think (but don't exactly know) that the particular sidekick made so popular by Lee is a modified WC sidekick. The chambering, leaning back and hip motion came from who-knows-where, but the heel thrust and footwork are exactly like the WC version when it's used with footwork or when closing the distance. You can even cross-step to cover more ground (sure you all know that).


That kick looks exactly like a chasse lateral median from savate. The chambering, the body position, the mechanics of the kick, all of it. So I assume [given Tao of JKD, etc.] that savate is a possible or even probable source for the kick. Although savate footwork doesn't tend to involve that sort of footwork as much [although cross steps and 'skips' are used sometimes to close distance quickly].

But as you say, who knows, there's a lot of technique convergence across styles.

Matt

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#427122 - 05/11/10 11:03 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: matt_mcg]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Bruce did take a LOT from Savate.

Coup de pied with rear leg, Chasse lateral bas, Chasse lateral and Chasse Frontal.

Note that Bruce MAY have had TKD influence in his films from that korean guy, Jhoon Rhee I think his name was. But I'm not sure.

Lee said he did not like 'high kicks'. However, he used a lot of 'thrusting' kicks employed in Savate.

-Donnie out
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#430051 - 09/20/10 08:27 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
trexeden@yahoo.c Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 4
Great question my man. This talk could go on and on. Iíve been interviewing JKD instructors from across the spectrum for a while now, here is what they have to say, you can check it out for no charge: http://www.JKDnewsletter.com

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#430057 - 09/20/10 03:17 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: trexeden@yahoo.c]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Old thread and I don't know where Bruce Lee took his influence from officially.

What I can tell you is he spent a lot of time with Ed Parker and training with his students. Not formally as a AKK guy but fighting and discussing philosophy and taking it too the mat.

He also worked with Gene LeBell on set and off, so I'd be hard pressed to believe he didn't tap that resource when he was around him as much as he was.

I've heard the old timers tell a few stories. I won't repeat them because stories tend to take on a life of their own depending on who the tellers are, but they are interesting in their own right.

I will say the common thread seems to be that LeBell was not a guy to messed with, not ground breaking I know, but the stories are still funny.
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#430069 - 09/21/10 12:08 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Kimo2007]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I heard that Lebell threw Lee into (as in 'inside') a garbage can! Don't know how true it is, but still funny.

My favorite is the story of him and Seagal.

--Chris
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#430071 - 09/21/10 03:47 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
See how those stories evolve, I heard he picked him up and Lee was yelling "put me down!"

Apparently he was being a pain in the a$$ onset and LeBell had enough.

Another story, when Lee was young, Parker told his guys to leave him alone because he was shopping the actor around to his Hollywood buddies. Lee might not have been the best MA in the world but he looked amazing on film, and his form was a thing of beauty.

Well, one night Lee and a guy who's name I won't mention because I got the story second hand (I'm not old like some of these geezers) anyway they got into a debate about fighting and it lead to some sparring and this guy gave it to BL pretty good.

Well the old man (as Parker was known) was livid, not sure what he did to the guy but that was the last time BL got man handled.

Don't get me wrong, he was still young he had just mouthed off to wrong guy and back in the day those guys pounded. BL was respected in the MA community even then though I doubt revered as the "best". Prettiest maybe, but hardly the best.

Again, the old stories from these guys are cool to hear even if you have to take them with a grain of salt as the years blur the details.

I will say I met a guy a long time ago who trained with Bill Wallace. He said he fought him in a tournament blah blah. He said yea, Bill kicked me in the head before I even knew we had started, but I held my own. Years later on a lark, I looked him up, and what do you know but I found him on a tournament results page. Bill Wallace First Place and Him in second...SOB was telling the truth!
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#430498 - 10/17/10 01:14 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
trexeden@yahoo.c Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 4
It is a challenge. Iíve interviewed some pretty high up JKD instructors. You can check out my interviews with them at http://www.JKDnewsletter.com

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