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#419182 - 05/25/09 06:01 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day cord sorry for the delayed response I've been flat out recently

Quote:


Sorry, I just dont buy this at all. It has been proved that a lot of violent offenders have abusive home backgrounds- that they have learned to express themselves through violence. As children/youths, they recieve much more than a 'slap' from parents and guardians, yet when punched outside of that context, suffer no such 'confusion' or freezing due to psychological linking.




Maybe not when punched, but a slap is more likely to produce a Flashback or a momentary association to that childhood, it is closer to the context. I didn't mean to imply it was forgone, just more likely

Quote:



A 'b1tch-slap', in my experience only serves as an antagonistic action- much like a shove to the chest. That is a complete anathema in the world of true self defence.

If you are going to strike, it should be for protection, not humiliation, and every contact should be designed to negate, not infuriate.




agreed mate hence my suggestion of a power slap

Quote:


You've never really been slapped by a girl have you




actually I don't believe I have, I must be a gentleman after all . I have been slapped in the head by a shoe once (working doors) that sure the hell shocked me.(does that count)


Quote:



Better to use the forearm as a punch alternative in these instances. A fist allows direct transfer of power from body to target via striking surface. So does the forearm. A slap adds another point of articulation in the wrist, and that extra point of flexion will always make the impact weaker.




I see what your saying but I don't agree a fist still has to have power travel through the wrist except it also has metacarpals and knuckles to pass through. the amount of power loss between open hand and fist is minimal if at all.

the wrist is held strong and actually provides an extra point to add power, in a power slap it has little flexion, technically your right but the amount of loss is negligible, combared to the over all power delivered


Quote:


If you are talking about striking with the heel of the hand, then that is not a slap. Period.
Quote:



I am talking about using the whole hand.

Quote:


Anything landed cleanly to the jaw has a higher chance of KO- its not the weapon used, its the whole 'clean shot to the jaw' bit that is the deciding factor in that one.[quote[

I agree hence my tagert choice.

Quote:



This may backfire on you. Remember, you have already acknowledged the social perception of a slap. SD is about convincing the authorities that you were in danger, and that you did not provoke the situation.
An untrained person (judge/jury/police) may well consider a slap as an act of provocation, or that you could not have felt that threatened if all you did was give him a 'swift backhander'




This is actually a very good point and one I had not considered before, thank you for pointing it out (seriously)

Quote:



How often, have you, or will you ever, decide that the right course of action is to blind or scar someone for life?



hopefully never, but they are tools I have in case

Quote:


As for clinch/grab, I dont see any diffculty or slowness in transition from clenched fist to clenched fist containing hair/clothing/etc.




it does take more time but it is minimal, it depends how you engage I dare say you are thinking like a fight where as I am thinking a different behavioural delivery of violence

Quote:

and if I did, I would be looking to close range with an elbow or forearm, not the palm of my hand, as a weapon.





nothing wrong with that dude, it's only another option depending on the situation.

Quote:

Just my opinion.



and sound one at that.


what ever tool you use is more determined by your opponent then yourself
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419183 - 05/25/09 06:22 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Maybe not when punched, but a slap is more likely to produce a Flashback or a momentary association to that childhood, it is closer to the context. I didn't mean to imply it was forgone, just more likely




I am still really not buying a 'wonder years' flashback as a tool to deal with an aggressor, however;

Quote:

what ever tool you use is more determined by your opponent then yourself




Truth.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#419184 - 05/25/09 09:21 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

A 'b1tch-slap', in my experience only serves as an antagonistic action- much like a shove to the chest. That is a complete anathema in the world of true self defence.

If you are going to strike, it should be for protection, not humiliation, and every contact should be designed to negate, not infuriate.



agreed mate hence my suggestion of a power slap




I'd have to part ways a little bit, and maybe it's how one defines Self Defense.

A slap is an escalation, no question but in Self Defense sometimes and escalation is like raising the bet in Poker. The intention might be to get you to fold, not call my bluff.

Circumstances really drive the equation, so to say escalation is the anathema of self defense, defines self defense in a very narrow light in very certain circumstances. For instance if I threaten someone while unarmed and they pull a gun, they have escalated the situation, in the right circumstances that would be self defense especially if the intention was not to kill me but to get me to fold so to speak.

The slap is the showing of power without the using of power. Not a first line defense but that isn't the question. I believe the question is does it have a place, and IMO it does, albeit a small one.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#419185 - 05/25/09 07:45 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Kimo2007]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Circumstances really drive the equation




exactly, thats why comparing one technique to another in just a physical sense is pointless for the real world application. depending on the circumstances one technique may be the better option even if not the most powerful.

This is where the behavioural element comes into play, a good strategy in real world self defence is to use/manipulate the behavioural element. the posturing eg provided by Kimo is an eg of strategically using the behavioural element. Not everyone can pull this off, but it is an option. the more options you have the more chance you have.

Anything will work in the right circumstances.

of course if a slap doesn't work for you or you simply don't like it, then it isn't a good tool for your self defence tool box. you must customize your tool box to you and your preferences and abilities.

as once said by a chess loving Persian Prince.
"the height of strategy is not making your best move , but making the worst move for your opponent."
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419186 - 05/30/09 03:37 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Slaps are a truly wonderful tool. If you think you can knock someone out with a punch you can also do it with an open hand PROVIDING you get the angle and timing right - which is exactly the same for anything.

Slaps are also a wonderful transition tool for attacking someones guard to transition in for hand pummeling and clinch work and to set up for a finishing strike. In tai chi we'll generally attack the first thing that is presented to us and most people trained or otherwise will raise their arms and attacking these properly means you can close them down and take their balance. Most K.O's are not caused caused by monstrous power punches they are done with relatively light 'clipping' shorts that cause the concussive rotation of the skull. So you need to catch your opponent off balance which can be done through either impeccable (and usually lucky) timing or via a skilled set up of a clinch and open hands shots make a wonderful transition. Close 'em down, bump 'em out their feet and then even a girl like Cord could knock 'em out!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#419187 - 05/30/09 08:45 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I know you little fella's have to get more creative to be effective Gav, no harm in that
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#419188 - 05/30/09 11:50 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#419189 - 05/30/09 04:26 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Gavin]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I actually just used slap a couple hours ago. I was walking down the street and a drunk homeless guy took a swing as I walked by him. I think I hit his ear. I followed it up with a straight blast using my palms rather than closed fists. It worked. Scary situation, considering my wife was pushing the stroller about 5 feet behind me.

I've been training my slap regularly for a couple of years, and it kicked in when I needed it.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#419190 - 06/01/09 03:23 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Ames]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Glad it you got through that OK Chris.

Another aspect of closing down using slaps and open hands strikes that is often over looked is the fact that it puts us in immediate tactile contact with our opponents. This means that any follow up shots can be guided via touch rather sight - although most don't really train this aspect that much. Most people use visual input to select targets and from distance this is fine but its slow and a gestimate at best. If you think about the process involved in acting upon a visual input, take in the image, estimate distance, trajectory and speed and then predict where the target will be by the time you need to land the shot. When you're touching someone you know precisely where they are, where their centre of gravity is and the brain has to do very little guess work. I remember reading a study a couple of years ago that said the neural response time on visual stimulus was on average 90ms and on tactile stimulus it was 30ms.

Trying to close someone down with fists means that you never stay in contact with the opponent and have to be very careful of how you engage with hard fist for fear of damaging it. With an open hand you can close down making contact with virtually any part of their body, stay in contact with them (sticking, trapping, following, etc), can very effectively bump them out of their feet to take their balance and also have an immediate tactile information source providing highly accurate targeting information for the finishing strike.

Bossman always says that all he needs is a touch and when you move around with him that's what he hunts. Rather than looking for a specific strike he'll wait for the opportunity to get a touch which can come in the form of an attack or an interception and once he's got you then he'll sit you on your arse!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#419191 - 06/01/09 12:35 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Gavin]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Glad it you got through that OK Chris.




Thanks Gavin. It was a freak thing. It happened in broad daylight in a pretty well-to-do neighborhood. I knew there was something up with him because he was cursing and taunting everyone who passed by. I couldn't take my family across the road, because the cars were bumper to bumper, and he was walking so fast I didn't want to turn my back to him. Anyway, all's well that end's well.

Quote:

I remember reading a study a couple of years ago that said the neural response time on visual stimulus was on average 90ms and on tactile stimulus it was 30ms.





Interesting fact there. For a while now, I've been training grappling/ joint locking with either both me and my partner blindfolded, or just one of us. I have noticed that my 'reflexes' have gotten faster.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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