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#419162 - 05/11/09 11:13 PM Slapping!
Taison Offline
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I know I know.. this sounds silly but..

Has anyone here actually considered using slaps?

I've found it to be a great asset, esp when going for clinches. I've been working on 'pensatao' or the crazy monkey defense, whatever you want to call it.

What I've noticed is that a skilled user will be able to negate most jabs with it with brutal effectiveness. However, it does not seem to work against slaps as efficiently.

I've used slaps to create openings in the pensatao, I've actually discouraged sparring partners from using it with powerslaps that hurt like a b!tch.

Not only that, it seems to be a very good 'mental' poker. It seems to bring out a more aggressive reaction in the opponents. It seems get them off focus. I've actually made a very defensive fighter go on the offense, an area which he is not skilled in, voluntarily.

It seems to work well in GnP tactics as well?

What's your thoughts?

~Donnie out
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#419163 - 05/12/09 01:50 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
grumbleweed Offline
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Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
lets keep the political humour/comments elsewhere please


Edited by Cord (05/12/09 02:45 AM)
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#419164 - 05/12/09 02:53 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
Cord Offline
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If it hurts, and it creates openings, then its valid.

A big part of why slapping is not used so often, I think, is the cultural perception of it as an insult, or even that it is gender specific ('b1tch-slap').

Of course, you wouldnt want to rely on slapping as a primary form of striking, simply because it lacks concussive power (yes I know in theory it could KO someone, but my money is on a punch every time).

Remember that Rutten vs Frank Shamrock fight where they were gridlocked , fighting for eachothers knee bars, and Rutten started slapping Shamrock? (it was Pancrase I think, so no fists allowed).
Shamrock started goading Rutten, laughing at him resorting to the technique, until Rutten took the bait and hit him with a closed fist, thus getting DQ'd

I would never rely on a technique that my attacker could laugh through.
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#419165 - 05/12/09 03:04 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
grumbleweed Offline
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Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
sorry! it was wrong
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#419166 - 05/12/09 11:56 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: grumbleweed]
Taison Offline
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Registered: 09/06/05
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I'm not really sure.

The deeper I delve into the crazy monkey defense, the more I fear using a proper clenched fist technique unless I'm 100% and 10% extra sure, I won't hit an elbow.

No no, slapping I see it more as a way to goad or provoke people into a different mental state. Physically, I don't think it's on par with punching.

KO'ing someone with a slap? Never seen anything that could come close.

~Donnie out
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#419167 - 05/12/09 12:05 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
MattJ Offline
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I train open-hand strikes on the heavy bag fairly often. I don't know if I could KO someone with them, but I'm pretty sure I could knock someone down if I landed a good one.
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#419168 - 05/12/09 12:10 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: MattJ]
Taison Offline
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
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Well, I haven't used this in sparring but I have been slapped on the left ear before.

My hearing on that side of the head is still not very good, and that was 2 years ago.

I felt like vomitting when I did get hit though. Could be effective in a 'real' fight.

~Donnie out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#419169 - 05/13/09 01:45 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


The deeper I delve into the crazy monkey defense, the more I fear using a proper clenched fist technique unless I'm 100% and 10% extra sure, I won't hit an elbow.




Well here you have to qualify if you are looking to utilise technique in sparring, as a persuit of interest, or if you are looking to practical application outside of the training session.

If the latter, then ask yourself this:
1. How likely are you to encounter a crazy monkey defence outside of your class?

2. if the answer to that is as I think (very unlikely), then, as every second of a physical defence counts, if you can reach a target with a slap, you can reach it with a fist.

3. which would you, in your experience of both giving, and recieving strikes, find more likely to end an attack?

I love MA's, and I love everything I have learned (such as it is), but I have never been taught, or practiced, anything that has convinced me that I need much more than a couple of really hard punches and the ability to get hold of someone and throw 'em around a bit, if it gets messy.

Thats me, but just doesnt seem like a sensible alternative.

Quote:

No no, slapping I see it more as a way to goad or provoke people into a different mental state.




Ah yes, the old 'make em angry and profit from their lack of control' idea.

Sorry, but making someone more angrier only makes things worse when its not a theory on paper- if not right there and then, if your attacker loses 'face', then they are much more likely to come find you for retribution.

Got to play the long game, as well as the short.
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#419170 - 05/13/09 09:45 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Hmm..

You've got a very true point there;

Quote:

making someone more angrier only makes things worse when its not a theory on paper


I've actually never thought about it outside the 'game', i.e. in an encounter outside of the ring.

Quote:

which would you, in your experience of both giving, and recieving strikes, find more likely to end an attack?


Giving, most definitely.

Quote:

How likely are you to encounter a crazy monkey defence outside of your class?


Grapple.

I think I'm getting automated with my sparring partners. We need some freshies lol.

~Donnie out
_________________________
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#419171 - 05/13/09 11:00 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
How about slapping as self defense?

I used a slap once to avoid a fight. Basically I was in a situation I knew was about to escalate (long story) anyway I didn't really want to punch the guy for a number of reasons but walking away was not really an option either, so I bitched slapped him, and gave him a firm talking too. (can't print what I actually said but you can do the math)

It could have gone the other way as well, but I had a feeling once he was exposed to my power and superior quickness, he would choose to live to fight another day. (joke)

Serious though, I find slaps to more of a mental strike then a physical. Like putting a kid in a headlock in grade school, not really fighting just proving who is the bigger dog, before fighting or doing real damage.

The application of this type of thing is pretty limited as well, although the urge to bitchslap someone is often a common occurrence


Slaps in sparring or an actual fight, never say never but I don't see it. Open hand strikes, sure I can see plenty of applications, though I imagine most of us would throw fists.
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#419172 - 05/14/09 12:26 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.


Quote:

You've got a very true point there;

Quote:

making someone more angrier only makes things worse when its not a theory on paper







I also seem to have been abandoned by the grammar fairy

Quote:

Quote:

which would you, in your experience of both giving, and recieving strikes, find more likely to end an attack?


Giving, most definitely.




Not quite what I meant- in context, if you had the choice, which would you trust more, landing a punch or a slap? When your safety is on the line, you allways put your money on the favourite, not the 100-1 shot.


Edited by Cord (05/14/09 12:27 AM)
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#419173 - 05/14/09 06:04 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
KUNGFUNOOBIE Offline
Almost Literate!

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 12
THERE ISNT NO SLAPPING IN JEET KUN DO ONLY PUNCHES, BACK FIST, UPPERCUT SHOVEL PUNCH ETC
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#419174 - 05/15/09 02:01 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: KUNGFUNOOBIE]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

THERE ISNT NO SLAPPING IN JEET KUN DO ONLY PUNCHES, BACK FIST, UPPERCUT SHOVEL PUNCH ETC




False.
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#419175 - 05/15/09 02:11 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: KUNGFUNOOBIE]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

THERE ISNT NO SLAPPING IN JEET KUN DO ONLY PUNCHES, BACK FIST, UPPERCUT SHOVEL PUNCH ETC




Absolutely! We all know what a conservative guy Bruce was! He didn't want anyone to use anything but very specific techniques in JKD. I'm pretty sure I heard someone say that they read that somewhere.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#419176 - 05/15/09 04:04 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: MattJ]
KUNGFUNOOBIE Offline
Almost Literate!

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 12
YES BUT U ONLY NEED THE OTHER TECHNIQUES WHEN IS IT APPROPRIATE TO.
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#419177 - 05/15/09 09:36 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
drgndrew Offline
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Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:



KO'ing someone with a slap? Never seen anything that could come close.

~Donnie out




know you have
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJJlAybY60Y

The Slap is a very underrated tool.

Most of you guys seem to be assuming that the slap is the (girly) type of slap you would expect if you pinched a waitress on the bum. Thats kind of like comparing a jab to a full over hand right.

you have the girly slap which does have a place in self defence, it provides a great distraction/set up for a more powerful follow up tool. it actually has a greater affect then the jab (for eg), the surface area is greater and thus activates more nerve receptors, it's a different strike to jab punch but can be used the same. psychologically it has a much greater affect, culturally we have all been enculturated to perceive a slap as insulting and unmanly, we all have been programed that slaps a re used on disobedient children ( even if you didn't get slapped as a kid). Because of this deep enculturement when we (males especially) receive a slap it has a very profound and deep affect on us which is well over and above the actually pain.

we expect to be punched in a fight and as such we are somewhat prepared for it (psychologically at least), but when we are slapped it is unexpected in a confrontation (esp between males), and it is contra to the situation, in stead of receiving the typical aggression tools we receive a tool that we associate to childhood punishment, we suddenly relive the embarrassment of being punished in public. and we are literally shocked more then if punched. when punched we are in the moment of the fight , thats normal for aggression, when slapped we are forced to attend to the psychological affect, it is incongruent with the situation and thus requires re-evaluation this is automatic and unavoidable (and often un noticed) the result is a moment of in activity as the system re-evaluates (similar to a freeze response).

Now the above waffle is only talking about the girly slap, take the above response and add Knock out power and penetration and you have the combative or power slap. Unlike the girly slap which is performed primarily by swinging the arm from the elbow and wrist hitting mainly with the fingers, the power slap is delivered with your entire body weight behind it. you hit with the entire palm of your hand it can be just as powerful as a hook punch and in some cases more so (the elbow is kept down in a slap as opposed horizontally with a hook). when done properly it is a very powerful strike and it is easier and more natural to do then many punches.

You must use your entire body not just the arm, think about the dynamics you would use to skim a rock across water the same motion can be applied to the slap except at head hight, you don't have to be as accurate as you do with punches in fact if you can land with the base of your palm in the dribble line of the jaw (basically straight down to the jaw from the corner of your mouth) and have your hand extend along teh jay then you can virtually guarantee a KO (not that anything is a guarantee in self defence, but it is a high percent option).

From another point of view the slap looks better from a witness point of view. which sounds would sound worst for you a witness telling a cop that "he slapped him" or a witness telling a cop that "he punched him". in reality the power is much the same if not slightly better with the power slap.

An added bonus, and this applies for most open hand techniques, is that you have more options after contact you can rake, scratch or gouge, grab or anchor, etc. unlike a punch which only really enables you to club them.

Oh and there is far greater chance of injury with open hands.
_________________________
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With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#419178 - 05/16/09 12:42 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:


Oh and there is far greater chance of injury with open hands.


Sorry That should read

Oh and there is far greater chance of injury with punching then with open hands.


Edited by drgndrew (05/16/09 12:44 AM)
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419179 - 05/17/09 03:54 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:



know you have
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJJlAybY60Y




Doesn't that clip scream 'STAGED!!!' to you?

Quote:


psychologically it has a much greater affect, culturally we have all been enculturated to perceive a slap as insulting and unmanly, we all have been programed that slaps a re used on disobedient children ( even if you didn't get slapped as a kid). Because of this deep enculturement when we (males especially) receive a slap it has a very profound and deep affect on us which is well over and above the actually pain.

we expect to be punched in a fight and as such we are somewhat prepared for it (psychologically at least), but when we are slapped it is unexpected in a confrontation (esp between males), and it is contra to the situation, in stead of receiving the typical aggression tools we receive a tool that we associate to childhood punishment, we suddenly relive the embarrassment of being punished in public. and we are literally shocked more then if punched. when punched we are in the moment of the fight , thats normal for aggression, when slapped we are forced to attend to the psychological affect, it is incongruent with the situation and thus requires re-evaluation this is automatic and unavoidable (and often un noticed) the result is a moment of in activity as the system re-evaluates (similar to a freeze response).




Sorry, I just dont buy this at all. It has been proved that a lot of violent offenders have abusive home backgrounds- that they have learned to express themselves through violence. As children/youths, they recieve much more than a 'slap' from parents and guardians, yet when punched outside of that context, suffer no such 'confusion' or freezing due to psychological linking.

A 'b1tch-slap', in my experience only serves as an antagonistic action- much like a shove to the chest. That is a complete anathema in the world of true self defence.

If you are going to strike, it should be for protection, not humiliation, and every contact should be designed to negate, not infuriate.

Quote:

Unlike the girly slap which is performed primarily by swinging the arm from the elbow and wrist hitting mainly with the fingers




You've never really been slapped by a girl have you

Quote:

the power slap is delivered with your entire body weight behind it. you hit with the entire palm of your hand it can be just as powerful as a hook punch and in some cases more so (the elbow is kept down in a slap as opposed horizontally with a hook). when done properly it is a very powerful strike and it is easier and more natural to do then many punches.




Better to use the forearm as a punch alternative in these instances. A fist allows direct transfer of power from body to target via striking surface. So does the forearm. A slap adds another point of articulation in the wrist, and that extra point of flexion will always make the impact weaker.

Quote:

you don't have to be as accurate as you do with punches in fact if you can land with the base of your palm in the dribble line of the jaw (basically straight down to the jaw from the corner of your mouth) and have your hand extend along teh jay then you can virtually guarantee a KO (not that anything is a guarantee in self defence, but it is a high percent option).




If you are talking about striking with the heel of the hand, then that is not a slap. Period.

Anything landed cleanly to the jaw has a higher chance of KO- its not the weapon used, its the whole 'clean shot to the jaw' bit that is the deciding factor in that one.

Quote:

From another point of view the slap looks better from a witness point of view. which sounds would sound worst for you a witness telling a cop that "he slapped him" or a witness telling a cop that "he punched him".




This may backfire on you. Remember, you have already acknowledged the social perception of a slap. SD is about convincing the authorities that you were in danger, and that you did not provoke the situation.
An untrained person (judge/jury/police) may well consider a slap as an act of provocation, or that you could not have felt that threatened if all you did was give him a 'swift backhander'

Quote:

An added bonus, and this applies for most open hand techniques, is that you have more options after contact you can rake, scratch or gouge, grab or anchor, etc. unlike a punch which only really enables you to club them.




How often, have you, or will you ever, decide that the right course of action is to blind or scar someone for life?

As for clinch/grab, I dont see any diffculty or slowness in transition from clenched fist to clenched fist containing hair/clothing/etc. and if I did, I would be looking to close range with an elbow or forearm, not the palm of my hand, as a weapon.

Just my opinion.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#419180 - 05/20/09 06:31 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Id absolutely slap someone. There are great results and advantages, like watering eyes, aggravation and frustration, and speed. Its a great distraction and set up tool.

At least half of fighting is mental warfare in which slapping might be considered guerrilla tactics.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#419181 - 05/22/09 09:50 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Taison]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

If its just a slap aim must be real good to right target...I use a slap as Mast Dong Taught...slap to side of head fingers splayed for the purpose of head control...slap side of head and continue to follow through twisting head to unbalance then give either a good shove to get opponent to ground and stomp something or split....

split reminds me, everyone needs some tricks ready and I like to share...The HIV virus is not spread via saliva unless bloody...an opening salvo of spitting lugy in face (and if someone corrects me on the HIV/saliva thing) spit on neck or chest, human instinct will probably give you 3-4 sec where they take eyes off you...there is a great opening...

Comments?

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
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#419182 - 05/25/09 06:01 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day cord sorry for the delayed response I've been flat out recently

Quote:


Sorry, I just dont buy this at all. It has been proved that a lot of violent offenders have abusive home backgrounds- that they have learned to express themselves through violence. As children/youths, they recieve much more than a 'slap' from parents and guardians, yet when punched outside of that context, suffer no such 'confusion' or freezing due to psychological linking.




Maybe not when punched, but a slap is more likely to produce a Flashback or a momentary association to that childhood, it is closer to the context. I didn't mean to imply it was forgone, just more likely

Quote:



A 'b1tch-slap', in my experience only serves as an antagonistic action- much like a shove to the chest. That is a complete anathema in the world of true self defence.

If you are going to strike, it should be for protection, not humiliation, and every contact should be designed to negate, not infuriate.




agreed mate hence my suggestion of a power slap

Quote:


You've never really been slapped by a girl have you




actually I don't believe I have, I must be a gentleman after all . I have been slapped in the head by a shoe once (working doors) that sure the hell shocked me.(does that count)


Quote:



Better to use the forearm as a punch alternative in these instances. A fist allows direct transfer of power from body to target via striking surface. So does the forearm. A slap adds another point of articulation in the wrist, and that extra point of flexion will always make the impact weaker.




I see what your saying but I don't agree a fist still has to have power travel through the wrist except it also has metacarpals and knuckles to pass through. the amount of power loss between open hand and fist is minimal if at all.

the wrist is held strong and actually provides an extra point to add power, in a power slap it has little flexion, technically your right but the amount of loss is negligible, combared to the over all power delivered


Quote:


If you are talking about striking with the heel of the hand, then that is not a slap. Period.
Quote:



I am talking about using the whole hand.

Quote:


Anything landed cleanly to the jaw has a higher chance of KO- its not the weapon used, its the whole 'clean shot to the jaw' bit that is the deciding factor in that one.[quote[

I agree hence my tagert choice.

Quote:



This may backfire on you. Remember, you have already acknowledged the social perception of a slap. SD is about convincing the authorities that you were in danger, and that you did not provoke the situation.
An untrained person (judge/jury/police) may well consider a slap as an act of provocation, or that you could not have felt that threatened if all you did was give him a 'swift backhander'




This is actually a very good point and one I had not considered before, thank you for pointing it out (seriously)

Quote:



How often, have you, or will you ever, decide that the right course of action is to blind or scar someone for life?



hopefully never, but they are tools I have in case

Quote:


As for clinch/grab, I dont see any diffculty or slowness in transition from clenched fist to clenched fist containing hair/clothing/etc.




it does take more time but it is minimal, it depends how you engage I dare say you are thinking like a fight where as I am thinking a different behavioural delivery of violence

Quote:

and if I did, I would be looking to close range with an elbow or forearm, not the palm of my hand, as a weapon.





nothing wrong with that dude, it's only another option depending on the situation.

Quote:

Just my opinion.



and sound one at that.


what ever tool you use is more determined by your opponent then yourself
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419183 - 05/25/09 06:22 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Maybe not when punched, but a slap is more likely to produce a Flashback or a momentary association to that childhood, it is closer to the context. I didn't mean to imply it was forgone, just more likely




I am still really not buying a 'wonder years' flashback as a tool to deal with an aggressor, however;

Quote:

what ever tool you use is more determined by your opponent then yourself




Truth.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#419184 - 05/25/09 09:21 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

A 'b1tch-slap', in my experience only serves as an antagonistic action- much like a shove to the chest. That is a complete anathema in the world of true self defence.

If you are going to strike, it should be for protection, not humiliation, and every contact should be designed to negate, not infuriate.



agreed mate hence my suggestion of a power slap




I'd have to part ways a little bit, and maybe it's how one defines Self Defense.

A slap is an escalation, no question but in Self Defense sometimes and escalation is like raising the bet in Poker. The intention might be to get you to fold, not call my bluff.

Circumstances really drive the equation, so to say escalation is the anathema of self defense, defines self defense in a very narrow light in very certain circumstances. For instance if I threaten someone while unarmed and they pull a gun, they have escalated the situation, in the right circumstances that would be self defense especially if the intention was not to kill me but to get me to fold so to speak.

The slap is the showing of power without the using of power. Not a first line defense but that isn't the question. I believe the question is does it have a place, and IMO it does, albeit a small one.
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#419185 - 05/25/09 07:45 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Kimo2007]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
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Quote:

Circumstances really drive the equation




exactly, thats why comparing one technique to another in just a physical sense is pointless for the real world application. depending on the circumstances one technique may be the better option even if not the most powerful.

This is where the behavioural element comes into play, a good strategy in real world self defence is to use/manipulate the behavioural element. the posturing eg provided by Kimo is an eg of strategically using the behavioural element. Not everyone can pull this off, but it is an option. the more options you have the more chance you have.

Anything will work in the right circumstances.

of course if a slap doesn't work for you or you simply don't like it, then it isn't a good tool for your self defence tool box. you must customize your tool box to you and your preferences and abilities.

as once said by a chess loving Persian Prince.
"the height of strategy is not making your best move , but making the worst move for your opponent."
_________________________
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www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419186 - 05/30/09 03:37 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
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Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Slaps are a truly wonderful tool. If you think you can knock someone out with a punch you can also do it with an open hand PROVIDING you get the angle and timing right - which is exactly the same for anything.

Slaps are also a wonderful transition tool for attacking someones guard to transition in for hand pummeling and clinch work and to set up for a finishing strike. In tai chi we'll generally attack the first thing that is presented to us and most people trained or otherwise will raise their arms and attacking these properly means you can close them down and take their balance. Most K.O's are not caused caused by monstrous power punches they are done with relatively light 'clipping' shorts that cause the concussive rotation of the skull. So you need to catch your opponent off balance which can be done through either impeccable (and usually lucky) timing or via a skilled set up of a clinch and open hands shots make a wonderful transition. Close 'em down, bump 'em out their feet and then even a girl like Cord could knock 'em out!
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#419187 - 05/30/09 08:45 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
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Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I know you little fella's have to get more creative to be effective Gav, no harm in that
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#419188 - 05/30/09 11:50 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
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#419189 - 05/30/09 04:26 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Gavin]
Ames Offline
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I actually just used slap a couple hours ago. I was walking down the street and a drunk homeless guy took a swing as I walked by him. I think I hit his ear. I followed it up with a straight blast using my palms rather than closed fists. It worked. Scary situation, considering my wife was pushing the stroller about 5 feet behind me.

I've been training my slap regularly for a couple of years, and it kicked in when I needed it.

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#419190 - 06/01/09 03:23 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: Ames]
Gavin Offline
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Glad it you got through that OK Chris.

Another aspect of closing down using slaps and open hands strikes that is often over looked is the fact that it puts us in immediate tactile contact with our opponents. This means that any follow up shots can be guided via touch rather sight - although most don't really train this aspect that much. Most people use visual input to select targets and from distance this is fine but its slow and a gestimate at best. If you think about the process involved in acting upon a visual input, take in the image, estimate distance, trajectory and speed and then predict where the target will be by the time you need to land the shot. When you're touching someone you know precisely where they are, where their centre of gravity is and the brain has to do very little guess work. I remember reading a study a couple of years ago that said the neural response time on visual stimulus was on average 90ms and on tactile stimulus it was 30ms.

Trying to close someone down with fists means that you never stay in contact with the opponent and have to be very careful of how you engage with hard fist for fear of damaging it. With an open hand you can close down making contact with virtually any part of their body, stay in contact with them (sticking, trapping, following, etc), can very effectively bump them out of their feet to take their balance and also have an immediate tactile information source providing highly accurate targeting information for the finishing strike.

Bossman always says that all he needs is a touch and when you move around with him that's what he hunts. Rather than looking for a specific strike he'll wait for the opportunity to get a touch which can come in the form of an attack or an interception and once he's got you then he'll sit you on your arse!
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#419191 - 06/01/09 12:35 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Gavin]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Glad it you got through that OK Chris.




Thanks Gavin. It was a freak thing. It happened in broad daylight in a pretty well-to-do neighborhood. I knew there was something up with him because he was cursing and taunting everyone who passed by. I couldn't take my family across the road, because the cars were bumper to bumper, and he was walking so fast I didn't want to turn my back to him. Anyway, all's well that end's well.

Quote:

I remember reading a study a couple of years ago that said the neural response time on visual stimulus was on average 90ms and on tactile stimulus it was 30ms.





Interesting fact there. For a while now, I've been training grappling/ joint locking with either both me and my partner blindfolded, or just one of us. I have noticed that my 'reflexes' have gotten faster.

--Chris
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#419192 - 06/01/09 02:53 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Ames]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


Quote:

I remember reading a study a couple of years ago that said the neural response time on visual stimulus was on average 90ms and on tactile stimulus it was 30ms.





Interesting fact there. For a while now, I've been training grappling/ joint locking with either both me and my partner blindfolded, or just one of us. I have noticed that my 'reflexes' have gotten faster.

--Chris




I've always found the blindfolded stuff to be a bit of a novelty to be honest. Done it when I was younger, but couldn't say I'd use it now. I do get students to occasionally do push hands with their eyes closed so they can 'listen' properly with their sense of touch. Removing the visual input is a great way of letting them experience how much info they can get from touch but I think ultimately you need to use both. In tai chi we have specific methods using the eyes to actually increase the sensitivity of the body, drawing our gaze to certain points of the form, trying focus on the periphery visual area, using the eyes to 'track' a particular limb, etc. Another drill I used to when striking from the clinch was to try and land the shots with someone holding focus mitts or thai pads using the different senses. For example targeting via touch alone, targeting via peripheral vision and popping out of the clinch and not striking until I'd locked in on a target and messing around with all of them. All good training but probably a bit off topic now... sorry!
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#419193 - 06/01/09 09:00 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:


I am still really not buying a 'wonder years' flashback as a tool to deal with an aggressor, however;





I should point out that the reaction isn't really a flashback type thing, it's more of a cognitive recognition or association, that take our attention momentarily, it may not even be a conscious thing, but it does cause a momentary period of inaction, on which you can act.

think of it as a mental flinch more then a an actual flashback.

we can only focus our attention on one thing at a time, when ever we are able to divert the attention of our opponent we have an opportunity, to attack. this is the same principle as asking a question prior to a pre-emptive strike, it engages the mind ( diverts attention to a thought) which provides a split second opportunity were they are most vulnerable.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419194 - 06/01/09 09:12 PM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
touch reflex is quicker then sight reflex, touch reflex is linked directly to the hind brain thus there is no cognitive thought involved in the reaction.

sight reflex travels through the higher level cognitive brain, there is a direct link to the hind brain (specifically the amygdala), this creates the initial startle/flinch response, but it then consults the memory and other higher order sytems to evaluate the stimulus. there is a lot of information provided by sight and the cognitive part of the brain has to sort out the appropriate match and response.

touch stimulus on the other hand does not contain that much information , there is really only hot, cold. pressure, and impact. the reaction is wired ( and can be learned hence chi sao) to the specific stimulus. you touch something hot and you quickly remove your hand with out thought, you feel pressure and you automatically either resist it or move with it depending on your wiring.

through balance into the equation and you have the simple , primarily unconscious and natural touch reflex based control.

but as mentioned this is OT
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#419195 - 06/02/09 01:09 AM Re: Slapping! [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Sorry just to drag this even further...

Talking on the use of sight to trigger the startle reflex empowered through the sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight) you can use the peripheral vision to engage the parasympathetic nervous (rest and recuperation) and expand your perception so that it bypasses the 'startle response'. It requires a very big shift in our consciousness to move away from thinking in a 'bit to bit' disjointed fashion and develop our ability to think fluidly without being fixated and drawn to shiny objects which bring a fluid state of thinking to a complete standstill.

I've only had a quick look but I found this link:

http://www.practicaleq.com/peripheral.html

Learning to see 'panoramically' in combat greatly reduces the tunnel vision associated with adrenaline dumps by keeping us focused on the complete picture rather than having a attention drawn to specifics where we can be caught out.
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