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#417987 - 05/06/09 08:03 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: drgndrew]
Jbacs Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 4
can you say anti-personnel

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#417988 - 05/06/09 10:40 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Jbacs]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Having gotten to train with a few of the fillipino knife fighting people,the guys with scars and wounds on their hands and arms from training with real knives...Until you go live bare blade you're flapping your gums. I'll guarantee you that when the steel comes out, you start to sweat, your heart races, and you get real clumsy-real fast.
Last ditch, do and probably die, technique. Unless you are really, really good-they are really, really bad and you are really, really, really lucky.

Duane

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#417989 - 05/11/09 01:58 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

I've been informed by high level combat gun guys here in the States, that within 6 feet, a person armed with a knife is potentially more lethal than one armed with a gun. There are various reasons for this with one main one being that either an ambush was planned or, initiative is taken and the advantage is not lost. People with blades get the jump on people before they can respond by drawing their weapon.




First, a disclaimer. In the same way as I've been involved in the MAs for years and attained some skill, but am nowhere near considering myself (Or being considered by others!) as a master, so I've been involved in defensive handgunning for yrs. as well, but have no claim to fame beyond having taken the time to train and practice what I learned. No way am I claiming to be Jeff Cooper (Nor would y'all believe me if I did!).
That said, if you're talking about a person with a holstered handgun who's received training up to your average LEO's, and who's let another armed with a knife within a 21 ft. radius of him/her, the person with the handgun is at a disadvantage (The closer the assailant, obviously the worse) if he/she just stands still while dealing with the attack. If the person backs up at a tangent to the line of attack and towards the attacker's outside, it's a whole new ball game. Using this tactic you gain space and time to draw and fire. Plus retreating off line to the attacker's advance forces him either to over-shoot the defender or waste time re-orienting his advance, thereby increasing the time to draw and fire. The greater the distance separating them, the better the defender's chances of trading space for time in order to draw and shoot.
When all's said and done, though, it's a nightmare scenario no matter how you look at it, and survival depends more on luck than skill.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#417990 - 05/17/09 01:11 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: MAGon]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
P.S. to the above: In the scenario that JKogas mentions of an attacker with a knife at 6 ft. or less from a defender armed with a holstered pistol, the late gun guru Jeff Cooper's counter would be to wait until the attacker was at arms length, strike/punch him to the head (Preferably a palm heel to the chin), retreat, then draw and attempt to fire.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#420465 - 06/28/09 02:34 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Originally Posted By: TheCrab
Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with [censord] the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up


We've done training like that in my JKD/Kali class. Fact is, a person with a knife can close the distance and cut you long before you can clear the holster even in training when you know what's coming. Just as Mike Lee Kanerek taught us in Haganah, the knife is a much more dangerous weapon to deal with in close quarters.

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#420466 - 06/28/09 03:26 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Glockmeister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Glockmeister

...Fact is, a person with a knife can close the distance and cut you long before you can clear the holster even in training when you know what's coming. Just as Mike Lee Kanerek taught us in Haganah, the knife is a much more dangerous weapon to deal with in close quarters.



Exactly. Although I'm not a firearms expert, one of my students is. I have talked with enough people to realize that what often happens is that carriers become "gun fixated". In other words, their solution for everything is their firearm.

A few things have been observed in scenario training. What often happens is that before they can draw their firearm, they are rushed by the knifer in training. In an attempt to rapidly create space (and aren't well trained) they often flail backward in their attempt, stumble and fall as a result, taking several bad knife thrusts or slashes in the process.

Over time as they are taught to move at appropriate angles, they're able to fight off the assailant and draw their weapon. This takes a moderate amount of training to pull-off. A committed knifer who is closing fast can create quite a bit of havoc.


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#420558 - 07/01/09 07:04 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
Kentao5 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
If you get the chance, check out the Gabe Suarez/Marc Denny series "Die Less Often."
Ken

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#420563 - 07/02/09 06:34 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Kentao5]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ken,

Actually I have already seen them. The student I mentioned (now more of a partner and good friend) has trained with both Suarez and Denny separately. He came back home with the DLO series and had me view it (we had been using the STAB and Red Zone programs for our counter knife stuff).

The video clips (love those) are a real eye opener if anyone hasn't seen them. It's exactly why I love pressure testing of theories.

I have worked the Pekiti hand, as well as the approaches used in the STAB and Red Zone programs and have to say that while the Pekiti hand offers a greater margin for error, it's more difficult to pick up initially. (Of course, that is why you train.)

The two-on-one control and head position is common to all three programs and comes from wrestling, so that much really isn't a problem. But that Pekiti hand seems just a tad awkward, though I have no doubt about it's validity.

Ken, does Burton do something similar to this for his counter knife work? Not asking for trade secrets here, just general info?

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#420621 - 07/05/09 12:00 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
Kentao5 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
We work the 2 on 1 also. If you can get the head butt on the entry does seem to make a difference. Make sure to try it with some head/face gear.
Ken

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#420622 - 07/05/09 01:25 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Kentao5]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I would also point out that the 2 on 1 is an overlapping tool used in either the DLO, the Red Zone or STAB programs. Definitely means that there is an element of "truth" to that technique, lol!

Great to have your input here Ken!


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