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#417967 - 04/02/09 09:44 PM interesting knife/gun facts
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with felt on the edge, and told to attack the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up

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#417968 - 04/03/09 05:09 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
do not go into a situation involving either knife or gun with any expectation other than getting injured or killed. That is the only rule you have to understand.

An LEO equipped with a firearm should have the awareness to go into such a situation with firearm already drawn. This is the reason that you see so many clips from US camera shows where they approach a stopped vehicle with guns already centred. If the passengers are compliant/unarmed, then its the easiest thing in the world not to shoot them. If they are otherwise, then they have reduced reaction time to a squeeze of the trigger.

Also, whilst it is true that if you are close with a knife, you will likely make it connect with a gunman, the number of knife wounds that are lethal in an instant are pretty small, so expect to be shot point blank in return. A bullet ricocheting around in your body will do more damage than a blade.

The Filipino eskrimadors have a saying in regards to knife fighting: 'Winners drip, losers gush'.

Nobody wins in a close range fight with lethal weapons.
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#417969 - 04/03/09 07:58 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Crab -

Your findings match very closely the results of some other studies. Check here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=2#Post15933507
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#417970 - 04/03/09 01:52 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: MattJ]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
In a fist fight expect to be hit.
In a knife fight expect to be cut.
In a gun fight expect to be shot.
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#417971 - 04/03/09 08:40 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Of course, if you happen to be the guy within 21 feet of the gun, you might just not be so lucky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o

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#417972 - 04/06/09 08:15 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Cord]
Ilove2Hit Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 264
Loc: Athens, Greece
hahaha check the comments under the video!

lool

"he has a speedhack"

"HHAAAAAXXXXXOOOOOOORRR"


lol, kids
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#417973 - 04/06/09 03:41 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Tueller Drill/21 Foot Rule: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
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#417974 - 04/06/09 03:51 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: MAGon]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Yep. My father was in charge of close protection operations in the Royal Hong Kong police in the 60's. Those under his protection during visits included Princess Margaret, the Sultan of Brunei, and numerous other dignitaries/political figures.
He had the force buy 10 small, snub nose pistols, that all CP officers had to carry in their pockets. They all practiced firing through the pockets from the hip on the target range until they had become proficient.

This meant that in crowd situations, when public were close enough to lunge or pose a threat, all on CP detail walked with 1 hand in their jacket pocket - just in case.
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#417975 - 04/07/09 09:54 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with felt on the edge, and told to attack the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up





Knives have there advantage but at 8 meters in the hands of an experinece Gun fighter or skilled Martial artist familar with Guns, I'd take a gun every time. Knives are very potent in closer before teh gun can be pulled out. Here is my reasoning in your test you asked the officer to disarm the knifer in a real situation thats not the Police officers Job, putting myself in his postition if deadly force/a knife was drawn on me I am entitled to meet it with dealdy force. Disarm my a$$, after I've shot him between the eyes, I'll kick the knife ourt of his hand. And remember this in close the gun can be used as a club and then a Gun again as the assailant react to being clubbed with the gun.

Listen I'm not taking anythng away from the lethal properties of a knife but in truth in most case if you attack a man armed with a knife uinless at very close range or from behind you both are fatally wounded or in bad shape. Rarely does either stop movement instantly unless a motor skill function is slice or shot, leaving seconds for all kind of mayhem.

Test can be used to prove almost anything you want them to, based on how you set them up. A Cop/Security personnel and especially a Swat member would not try disarm a knifer unless in a very unually situation. Swat would have their sniper take him out before he got within 6 meters, if he started at 8 of another Swat memeber. Swat is a team much like the Seals/Marines in some ways, rarely can you isolate one w/o being shot by the other memebers. We are talking about multi thousands of dollares of training in each memeber, they won't risk take on a knife even though they train it.

Everybodys seen the 21ft scenario so its open season on knifers no one will take them on with a flashlight anymore unless its a small teen.

Your test showed a what happens if a person does the wrong thing of trying to disarm a knifer instead of talking him down under the threat of deadly force back at him.

Your test was interesting, some of thoughs guys are trained pretty well usually casuality rates are higher in both incidents and is the reason people stopped trying them.

In the end I agree with your conclusion but I'll add legging it against a knife is good odds too.


Edited by Neko456 (04/07/09 09:59 AM)

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#417976 - 04/07/09 05:11 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Neko456]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
hey Crab,


Quote:

... 60% of them we're cut fatally.




Just for clarity, what was the criteria your using for "Fatal cut"
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