FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 23 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SenseiGregT, sagat, JFawkes, pluckysaga39, sgtdemeo
22911 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 5
AndyLA 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 3
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 03:51 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
08/29/14 10:50 PM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/28/14 02:39 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
08/16/14 04:59 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Forum Stats
22911 Members
36 Forums
35573 Topics
432484 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#417967 - 04/02/09 09:44 PM interesting knife/gun facts
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with felt on the edge, and told to attack the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up

Top
#417968 - 04/03/09 05:09 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
do not go into a situation involving either knife or gun with any expectation other than getting injured or killed. That is the only rule you have to understand.

An LEO equipped with a firearm should have the awareness to go into such a situation with firearm already drawn. This is the reason that you see so many clips from US camera shows where they approach a stopped vehicle with guns already centred. If the passengers are compliant/unarmed, then its the easiest thing in the world not to shoot them. If they are otherwise, then they have reduced reaction time to a squeeze of the trigger.

Also, whilst it is true that if you are close with a knife, you will likely make it connect with a gunman, the number of knife wounds that are lethal in an instant are pretty small, so expect to be shot point blank in return. A bullet ricocheting around in your body will do more damage than a blade.

The Filipino eskrimadors have a saying in regards to knife fighting: 'Winners drip, losers gush'.

Nobody wins in a close range fight with lethal weapons.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#417969 - 04/03/09 07:58 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Crab -

Your findings match very closely the results of some other studies. Check here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=2#Post15933507
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#417970 - 04/03/09 01:52 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: MattJ]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
In a fist fight expect to be hit.
In a knife fight expect to be cut.
In a gun fight expect to be shot.
_________________________
Duane

Top
#417971 - 04/03/09 08:40 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Of course, if you happen to be the guy within 21 feet of the gun, you might just not be so lucky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o

_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#417972 - 04/06/09 08:15 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Cord]
Ilove2Hit Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 264
Loc: Athens, Greece
hahaha check the comments under the video!

lool

"he has a speedhack"

"HHAAAAAXXXXXOOOOOOORRR"


lol, kids
_________________________
do what you say and say what you do no pain no gain

Top
#417973 - 04/06/09 03:41 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Tueller Drill/21 Foot Rule: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
#417974 - 04/06/09 03:51 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: MAGon]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Yep. My father was in charge of close protection operations in the Royal Hong Kong police in the 60's. Those under his protection during visits included Princess Margaret, the Sultan of Brunei, and numerous other dignitaries/political figures.
He had the force buy 10 small, snub nose pistols, that all CP officers had to carry in their pockets. They all practiced firing through the pockets from the hip on the target range until they had become proficient.

This meant that in crowd situations, when public were close enough to lunge or pose a threat, all on CP detail walked with 1 hand in their jacket pocket - just in case.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#417975 - 04/07/09 09:54 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with felt on the edge, and told to attack the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up





Knives have there advantage but at 8 meters in the hands of an experinece Gun fighter or skilled Martial artist familar with Guns, I'd take a gun every time. Knives are very potent in closer before teh gun can be pulled out. Here is my reasoning in your test you asked the officer to disarm the knifer in a real situation thats not the Police officers Job, putting myself in his postition if deadly force/a knife was drawn on me I am entitled to meet it with dealdy force. Disarm my a$$, after I've shot him between the eyes, I'll kick the knife ourt of his hand. And remember this in close the gun can be used as a club and then a Gun again as the assailant react to being clubbed with the gun.

Listen I'm not taking anythng away from the lethal properties of a knife but in truth in most case if you attack a man armed with a knife uinless at very close range or from behind you both are fatally wounded or in bad shape. Rarely does either stop movement instantly unless a motor skill function is slice or shot, leaving seconds for all kind of mayhem.

Test can be used to prove almost anything you want them to, based on how you set them up. A Cop/Security personnel and especially a Swat member would not try disarm a knifer unless in a very unually situation. Swat would have their sniper take him out before he got within 6 meters, if he started at 8 of another Swat memeber. Swat is a team much like the Seals/Marines in some ways, rarely can you isolate one w/o being shot by the other memebers. We are talking about multi thousands of dollares of training in each memeber, they won't risk take on a knife even though they train it.

Everybodys seen the 21ft scenario so its open season on knifers no one will take them on with a flashlight anymore unless its a small teen.

Your test showed a what happens if a person does the wrong thing of trying to disarm a knifer instead of talking him down under the threat of deadly force back at him.

Your test was interesting, some of thoughs guys are trained pretty well usually casuality rates are higher in both incidents and is the reason people stopped trying them.

In the end I agree with your conclusion but I'll add legging it against a knife is good odds too.


Edited by Neko456 (04/07/09 09:59 AM)

Top
#417976 - 04/07/09 05:11 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Neko456]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
hey Crab,


Quote:

... 60% of them we're cut fatally.




Just for clarity, what was the criteria your using for "Fatal cut"
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

Top
#417977 - 04/07/09 05:27 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up




I don't really understand what you are getting at here, are you saying knife defense is totally useless, or are you just questioning it's success rate?

I've never met anyone in my life who teaches weapon disarms that claims they have a high success rate, common sense should tell you that any such technique is an 'oh crap' situation.

It's nice to see that FA.com hasn't lost its penchant for creating nonstop straw man arguments to knock down;)

Top
#417978 - 04/08/09 11:18 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

Just for clarity, what was the criteria your using for "Fatal cut"




cuts to the jugular, heart stabs, stuff like that. anything that would kill you basically lol



Quote:

I don't really understand what you are getting at here, are you saying knife defense is totally useless, or are you just questioning it's success rate



bit of both. im saying anyone whos got it in their head that they can disarm a knife succesfully should think again, and im saying that this should have some bearing on what they do choose to do.

Quote:

I've never met anyone in my life who teaches weapon disarms that claims they have a high success rate, common sense should tell you that any such technique is an 'oh crap' situation.



Unfortunately common sense seems to be rare among the martial art community from my experience. And every second person who does a knife disarm drill in karate may think it will always work. I just posted this for a bit of interesting conversation/info, and maybe to discourage people from using that option.

I personally know a lot of people that have done weapons disarm training that think they can do it, so its not a rare delusion. Not to say you shouldnt try if you have no other choice, but dont have any false expectations?

Top
#417979 - 04/08/09 11:52 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Quote:

Just for clarity, what was the criteria your using for "Fatal cut"




cuts to the jugular, heart stabs, stuff like that. anything that would kill you basically lol






Thanks Crab, Thats what I thought,

Some consider any cut/stab at all to be fatal when in reality death from a single cut is relatively uncommon, the vast majority of deaths from knife attacks have multiple cuts/stabs wounds.

Most people who face a committed knife attacker will bleed, knife defense is all about minimizing damage.

I don't have time to ramble like normal ( stop cheering) so I'll leave it there and might return later with a more in depth discussion from the dragons mind.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

Top
#417980 - 04/09/09 01:53 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well I don't know who you're associating with TheCrab but I don't know anyone including people who teach such techniques that claims they are foolproof.

In fact they all pretty much say "you're probably screwed", so the options are to not train it at all, or to train things that might stand some small chance of helping you in those situations and minimize the damage. We can debate what those may be...

But once again, all you did was set up a straw man of these mysterious people who think they can safely disarm anyone. I don't know who you associate with MA wise, but I haven't run into anywhere near that amount of people who claim knife defenses are any kind of sure thing.

Furthermore, i've literally never met ANYONE in my time training in the martial arts who though ANYTHING would "always work".

Maybe it would be good to stay away from those kind of blanket statements if we want to have a real discussion about this.

Can you tell me a bit more about the actual set up of how this worked? Like parameters of the drilling etc? How close to the officers did you start the attack, were they permitted any kind of guard or did they start from a neutral posture...these kinds of things.

You need to define your opinion here too I think, what kind of knife defence do you think is worth doing? There's everything from Krav Maga to the dog brothers, do you think it's all worthless or what?

Also 40% being non-fatal cuts is not a small number when dealing with weapons it seems to me.

What were these police "trained" in specifically?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/09/09 02:07 AM)

Top
#417981 - 04/09/09 03:48 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I think you are being unfair here Zach. Crab is in the process of getting his security operatives license in Australia, and has relayed his experience from a days training, where paintball guns and marker knives were used to highlight how easily one will get injured if encountering the real thing in a live environment.

All he has done is taken on the truth from that lesson, and posted his observations for others to discuss, or share their own experiences in the field.

Your only contributions so far are to complain about the opening post. Twice.
If you want to re-frame the thread with your obeservations by way of response, then great- thats rather the whole point of the thread isnt it?
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#417982 - 04/09/09 03:57 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Cord]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well it seems like the original thread was posted with a definite agenda, I could be wrong but it's my impression that whatever the results of TheCrabs experience, he would frame them to validate what he already believes on this subject.

That said, again I could be wrong, and if i'm out of line sorry.

So yeah, i'd like to hear more details about how the drill was conducted, and about what kind of training the police involved had. And I suppose what (if any) kind of knife training the knife-wielders had.

Were any of them able to disarm you guys, and if so, was there a common theme in how they did so?

For the record I don't put alot of faith in unarmed knife defence, it's definitely not my thing.

However I also reject the notion put forth by some people that it's a completely fruitless thing to do, or that there is no value in learning such techniques, or in training for this kind of thing.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/09/09 04:07 AM)

Top
#417983 - 04/09/09 07:54 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

he would frame them to validate what he already believes on this subject.



Im just posting something interesting. not even an opinion

All the exercise was, was a 4 metre gap, the person with the knife could attack in whatever fashion and in full force the defender, (police/swat) with the felt knife. They had to get it out of our hands or drop us without being "killed", we also did similar with holstered/non holstered paint glocks.

None of us had any experience or knife training, and obviously the police were trained heavily, which makes it slightly more realistic in terms of results, and as I said the gun results varied.

Some of them disarmed us, but all of them got cut at least a few times on the way. There wasnt really a common theme, as we tried different approaches every time.


Quote:

However I also reject the notion put forth by some people that it's a completely fruitless thing to do, or that there is no value in learning such techniques, or in training for this kind of thing.



As I said, I didnt dismiss it as fruitless. Unlikely, yes, but if you have no other choice you have to do what you have to do, whether they attack you with a switchblade or a tyrannosaurus.

Top
#417984 - 04/09/09 08:18 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I've been informed by high level combat gun guys here in the States, that within 6 feet, a person armed with a knife is potentially more lethal than one armed with a gun. There are various reasons for this with one main one being that either an ambush was planned or, initiative is taken and the advantage is not lost. People with blades get the jump on people before they can respond by drawing their weapon.

Obviously, bullets kill at any range. Knives require close range. I think it has to do with the fact that blade armed opponents are closing rapidly and are highly aggressive as they come in, pumping the weapon viciously while the gun man often is in "reactive" mode, typically trying move backward to create space. This often puts someone off balance if they are not highly trained. Being "reactive" here puts you behind the curve.

I think it's possible that many people with firearms simply aren't adequately trained for this situation. They go to ranges and shoot. They don't do combat handgunning or scenario training against people armed with knives who are trying desperately to close distance.

Just some thoughts.


-John

Top
#417985 - 04/09/09 02:58 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Thanks for the additional info TheCrab, it's good food for thought.

I gotta ask though, do you know what the police were actually trained in? I have no idea how this works in your neck of the woods but from what i've seen here there is a wide range of cqc training levels in law enforcement, from highly to very little.

I ask because of the 'heavily trained' comment, it would be nice to know what they were heavily trained in..like if they were all trained in the same knife retention program or something.

Is there a standardized knife retention training or something for police there?

I don't know for sure, but from my exposure I wouldn't say most of the cops i've met here are 'heavily trained' in this kind of thing unless they're seeking it out themselves.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/09/09 03:01 PM)

Top
#417986 - 04/13/09 09:44 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jkogas - Obviously, bullets kill at any range. Knives require close range. I think it has to do with the fact that blade armed opponents are closing rapidly and are highly aggressive as they come in, pumping the weapon viciously while the gun man often is in "reactive" mode, typically trying move backward to create space.

456 - This is a good point and the main point of my comment is that a gun can cause damage at almost any range even from the ground or falling or running firing as you retreat. The knife vs. Gun is a mute point unless you are very skilled, aggressive and still if the gunner trade shots for stabs you both loose. Unless you trap the gunners arm and stab him until he is dead if you can control a man fighting for his life that long. Even from the ground dying he can empty the gun in you, it takes mear seconds. Only in rare situation is a knife vs. a Gun a win win situation. IMHO.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#417987 - 05/06/09 08:03 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: drgndrew]
Jbacs Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 4
can you say anti-personnel

Top
#417988 - 05/06/09 10:40 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Jbacs]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Having gotten to train with a few of the fillipino knife fighting people,the guys with scars and wounds on their hands and arms from training with real knives...Until you go live bare blade you're flapping your gums. I'll guarantee you that when the steel comes out, you start to sweat, your heart races, and you get real clumsy-real fast.
Last ditch, do and probably die, technique. Unless you are really, really good-they are really, really bad and you are really, really, really lucky.

Duane

Top
#417989 - 05/11/09 01:58 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

I've been informed by high level combat gun guys here in the States, that within 6 feet, a person armed with a knife is potentially more lethal than one armed with a gun. There are various reasons for this with one main one being that either an ambush was planned or, initiative is taken and the advantage is not lost. People with blades get the jump on people before they can respond by drawing their weapon.




First, a disclaimer. In the same way as I've been involved in the MAs for years and attained some skill, but am nowhere near considering myself (Or being considered by others!) as a master, so I've been involved in defensive handgunning for yrs. as well, but have no claim to fame beyond having taken the time to train and practice what I learned. No way am I claiming to be Jeff Cooper (Nor would y'all believe me if I did!).
That said, if you're talking about a person with a holstered handgun who's received training up to your average LEO's, and who's let another armed with a knife within a 21 ft. radius of him/her, the person with the handgun is at a disadvantage (The closer the assailant, obviously the worse) if he/she just stands still while dealing with the attack. If the person backs up at a tangent to the line of attack and towards the attacker's outside, it's a whole new ball game. Using this tactic you gain space and time to draw and fire. Plus retreating off line to the attacker's advance forces him either to over-shoot the defender or waste time re-orienting his advance, thereby increasing the time to draw and fire. The greater the distance separating them, the better the defender's chances of trading space for time in order to draw and shoot.
When all's said and done, though, it's a nightmare scenario no matter how you look at it, and survival depends more on luck than skill.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
#417990 - 05/17/09 01:11 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: MAGon]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
P.S. to the above: In the scenario that JKogas mentions of an attacker with a knife at 6 ft. or less from a defender armed with a holstered pistol, the late gun guru Jeff Cooper's counter would be to wait until the attacker was at arms length, strike/punch him to the head (Preferably a palm heel to the chin), retreat, then draw and attempt to fire.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
#420465 - 06/28/09 02:34 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Originally Posted By: TheCrab
Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with [censord] the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up


We've done training like that in my JKD/Kali class. Fact is, a person with a knife can close the distance and cut you long before you can clear the holster even in training when you know what's coming. Just as Mike Lee Kanerek taught us in Haganah, the knife is a much more dangerous weapon to deal with in close quarters.

Top
#420466 - 06/28/09 03:26 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Glockmeister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Glockmeister

...Fact is, a person with a knife can close the distance and cut you long before you can clear the holster even in training when you know what's coming. Just as Mike Lee Kanerek taught us in Haganah, the knife is a much more dangerous weapon to deal with in close quarters.



Exactly. Although I'm not a firearms expert, one of my students is. I have talked with enough people to realize that what often happens is that carriers become "gun fixated". In other words, their solution for everything is their firearm.

A few things have been observed in scenario training. What often happens is that before they can draw their firearm, they are rushed by the knifer in training. In an attempt to rapidly create space (and aren't well trained) they often flail backward in their attempt, stumble and fall as a result, taking several bad knife thrusts or slashes in the process.

Over time as they are taught to move at appropriate angles, they're able to fight off the assailant and draw their weapon. This takes a moderate amount of training to pull-off. A committed knifer who is closing fast can create quite a bit of havoc.


Top
#420558 - 07/01/09 07:04 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
Kentao5 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
If you get the chance, check out the Gabe Suarez/Marc Denny series "Die Less Often."
Ken

Top
#420563 - 07/02/09 06:34 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Kentao5]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ken,

Actually I have already seen them. The student I mentioned (now more of a partner and good friend) has trained with both Suarez and Denny separately. He came back home with the DLO series and had me view it (we had been using the STAB and Red Zone programs for our counter knife stuff).

The video clips (love those) are a real eye opener if anyone hasn't seen them. It's exactly why I love pressure testing of theories.

I have worked the Pekiti hand, as well as the approaches used in the STAB and Red Zone programs and have to say that while the Pekiti hand offers a greater margin for error, it's more difficult to pick up initially. (Of course, that is why you train.)

The two-on-one control and head position is common to all three programs and comes from wrestling, so that much really isn't a problem. But that Pekiti hand seems just a tad awkward, though I have no doubt about it's validity.

Ken, does Burton do something similar to this for his counter knife work? Not asking for trade secrets here, just general info?

Top
#420621 - 07/05/09 12:00 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
Kentao5 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
We work the 2 on 1 also. If you can get the head butt on the entry does seem to make a difference. Make sure to try it with some head/face gear.
Ken

Top
#420622 - 07/05/09 01:25 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Kentao5]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I would also point out that the 2 on 1 is an overlapping tool used in either the DLO, the Red Zone or STAB programs. Definitely means that there is an element of "truth" to that technique, lol!

Great to have your input here Ken!


Top
#420698 - 07/08/09 11:41 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Good points guys. Going unarmed against someone armed with either knife or firearm, especially in that weapon's preferred range... is an incredibly difficult task. While we can certainly pull up some anecdotal evidence of someone kicking a knife out of someone's hand or wrestling a gun away from a mugger, etc, I think that most intelligent people realize that the chance of injury is high, even against an unskilled attacker.

Karl Tanswell teaches a program called STAB that emphasizes an athletically provable control postion (the 2 on 1). He will be the first to tell you however, (and this is part of his presentation) that "there is NO DISTANCE WORK IN S.T.A.B". Fighting over a knife when you can escape is silly or as Karl says "is for retards". The STAB program is based upon (and more knife programs should pay attention to this...) the idea that most of the knife attack scenarios that mandate an empty hand response are scenarios in which you have already been cut, even if you dont know it yet.

A real knife attack is "an ambush". If you can see it coming, you probably have other options than trying to wrestle for a knife.

I do question however, the training objective of having officers try to close a 4 meter distance to try to take a paint gun (Sims, Airsoft, whatever). I think that lesson would be over pretty quickly, especially whn the role players attempt to "game" the exercise.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/08/09 11:43 PM)
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

Top
#420700 - 07/09/09 12:05 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Fletch1]
ThunderinJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 33
Sounds like their training those officers to take a bullet. And a knife attack should be an ambush, it is the most effective approach. I also know a guy in Panama that could "cut up" numerous attackers, and even if you had a gun don't get within arms reach. I'd rather not defend a knife attack, I would run if I could. If forced I like push kicks, wrist strikes, throat, eyes, collar bone, if it comes down to wrist control I hope he can take a punch. I try to keep the distance if my enemy closes the gap with the blade and we go down I would isolate the arm. A gun would have to be in my immediate area, as in at my head. Otherwise take cover.

Top
#421749 - 08/20/09 04:56 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: ThunderinJoe]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Working some unarmed vs. knife is always a plus, you never know when that situation could come up, and it's good to have some skills that will at least increase the possibility of coming out alive or hopefully even fully intact (but getting sliced up at least a little is a given). The STAB program looks excellent, although personally I'd rather stay back and move laterally, taking potshots with lead leg kicks to the shins/knees till I can either get away, knock or even the odds. I'd say what's more important is learning to pay attention to your surroundings at all times, and potential ways of getting away real quick and superior weapons of opportunity (a chair for instance, a broken pool cue, even a stick and a thick jacket wrapped over your arm as soemthing of a shield) always keeping in the back of your mind ways of stacking the odds in your favor any way you can. That's why soldiers spend so little tiem on unarmed fighting, it's more important to be good with your weapons, weapons of opportunity, and using your surroundings/buddies, or whatever. Why work with the most disadvantaged situation when you don't have to? Scenario training is great for that sort of thing. Guns arent the only equalizer.
Including distraction measures in these unarmed vs. knife programs would be especially helpful I would think. Just a few thoughts.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#421756 - 08/20/09 07:33 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Fletch is right on. I don't think many will argue that if you can stay back and move laterally and then RUN, that's great! I don't think anyone wants to stick around and fight a guy with knife.

The point is that you will get hit by a knife often before you know it with the attack being a "berserking" type of assault. You have to then stop the immediate assault on you first before deciding to do something else. Oddly enough, just deciding to try and create space in this situation often ends up badly (falling down, etc) unless you have dealt first with the immediate problem. Try it and see for yourself with your training partner providing realistic energy and pressure.

Remember, our opponent can move forward faster than we can backward. Given that he is going to be thrusting violently (sewing machine type of motion), often before you will know what's going on, we simply don't have the time to finesse a "crazed chimp with a shank". Lets face it, a bad guy with a knife who wants to hurt you isn't going to let you know he's coming 30 yards away. He will probably try and slip in close to you behind an "innocent" approach.

If you can't run, it may also mean that you can't create space and angle either. Also, not being able to run might mean that you have someone there to protect. In that sense, creating space means keeping your opponent free and allowing him to berserk other people.

I think that one of the problems that "martial artists" have with this situation, is the thought that the knifer will come in and stop at a certain distance and then slash the knife around at you. Most people who've been assaulted will tell you that this isn't the case at all. A man with a knife who is intent on killing you (not just brandishing) will CLOSE the distance with you (into the clinch), then grab and stab, not letting you get away.

This isn't a good situation regardless. The odds aren't in anyone's favor. However gaining control of the weapon arm and opponent after you've been hit (assuming you'll be hit before you are aware of it) keeps the repeated hits from happening.

The odds of surviving one stab or so are pretty good. It's those multiple stabs that get you.


Top
#421761 - 08/20/09 11:58 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
quatin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 6
Quote:
Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.


So if the officer charged you from further away you would hit him less? Did you get the backwards?

Also, perhaps you should try again, but with a bit of firearm training (even looking at some youtube videos on some strategy). I'm not discounting your results, but just suggesting a more thorough test. Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) has an excellent tutorial about drawing, point shooting and lateral movement when facing an opponent charging at you from close distance.

Top
#421867 - 08/25/09 08:41 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

This is off track a bit...

AND IS ONLY MY HUMBLE OPINION, please I am not a LEO

FOR LADIES AND MEN...If caught off guard by a knife or gun wielding attacker who demands you to enter your vehicle and come with the or the will shoot or stab you....better to be shot or stabbed in a parking lot or drive than go to a nameless horror they have awaiting you, if its your vehicle...throw the keys one way and run the other.

OK--Everyone who thinks I'm an idiot go ahead and shred me:)

Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

Top
#421912 - 08/27/09 11:59 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think I'm following you Karl. It's definitely better to stand and fight where you are then to be taken to another location. That much is true.

Top
#421923 - 08/27/09 03:09 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: JKogas]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hey JKogas,

Thanks, its kinda up there with keys ready , strong hand on conceal carry weapon...so many ladies keep loaded right to carry gun in in their ZIPPED purse...what good is that...a Prada Club in colors??

Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

Top
#421976 - 08/29/09 08:07 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi Me, again...
are my posts so confusion or dull that....well seems like I post or respond and few follow up...makes a bloke feel...lonely, nah, like maybe I have nothing worth saying...

TO POINT:

Yeah not smart against gun....but if men and woman started carrying OC w/uv perp ID at least against knife and or multiple attackers odds of escape increase.

on key chain or hip accesses holder there are new dispensers which expel multiple blasts at ( not a quote, just one of my Alzheimer moment things) at approx 120-180-MPH enough to negate wind drift or blow back, increases distance of discharge effectiveness.

I am NOT a LEO, but do recommended buying 1-3 (some are now available w/ pre filled recharge canisters/

1.) Practice multiple discharges till comfortable with range/ spread and influence of windage. If you got s set on you allow some to drift into your eyes and nose and mouth (JUST MY OPINION ONLY, ASTHMATICS DO NOT DO THIS< but you already got the idea)

2.) If the mechanism purchased involves more than point and spray, watch TV and practice release safety, place finger on discharge, point (Uhhhhh....dont spray in home).

3.) If possible discharge on attacker, DO NOT TRY MORE, run to populated area call 911, describe attacker and wait.

4.)discharging OC is as discharging a weapon, threat must be present, gotta pass a polygraph (Tac in shoe or anal sphincter constriction are now easy for trained polygraph tech to read, dont expect to fool one). Be prepared for LEO detainment if, as probable, no witnesses....but better safe than knifed.

Karl. Lets all be safe out there, ok. (what tv show that from???)
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

Top
#422137 - 09/05/09 08:56 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Sounds good.
You are saying what Peyton Quinn has been saying for years.

Top
#422146 - 09/06/09 08:20 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: karl314285]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: karl314285
throw the keys one way and run the other.


Your keys can be a useful weapon - slip thenm between your fingers into a makeshift knuckle duster. Can be very nasty if you have the opportunity to get a good strike in.

Top
#425526 - 02/25/10 05:15 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: puffadder]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Lucky for me my instructor is also a detective and SWAT member. We get to do shooting,knife drills WITH our training.

The tueller drill is REAL, knives are deadly from an agressor at 21ft even if you have a holstered firearm. Create distance and draw on the go. Better have your firearm in condition one too. You don't want to try to be chambering a round when seconds count.

Oh yeah, make sure it's a .45acp. grin
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#425710 - 03/06/10 07:52 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: iaibear]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Never act like prey. Fight like hell and why would you trust a perp who says "do this and I won't hurt you" anyway?

Weapon in the purse... not available... not good.

We did some experimenting in the dojo to see if even for a knife in the pocket, at how many yards a way does an attacker need to be before you have it "fight ready". It is amazing how badly we did for a great variety of styles of knives. Mind you, we train knives and know what we are doing to draw them. We weren't testing technique or style, just the draw to "fight ready".

For myself, I prefer a weapon in my hand that I will always have as available as possible. In the parking lot I have my koubaton on my key ring. It is simple and not fancy, but available which counts for a lot. If you can't get a koubaton, drill a hole through the handle of a screw driver and use that. Carry something. Don't let your wives, daughters, girl friends go into the parking lot without something. And most importantly, TRAIN with it.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#425732 - 03/07/10 08:52 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: BrianS]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Originally Posted By: BrianS
...Oh yeah, make sure it's a .45acp. grin


I don't disagree in general with this statement, the .45 ACP being the quintessential "manstopper" in hand gun cartridges. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it either. A couple of anecdotes:

1. Capt. W.E. Fairbairn, of Shanghai Police/WWII combatives/Commandos fame, tells the story of a Chinese bandit that continued to charge a police officer who shot him seven times at close quarters with a .45 ACP.

2. One of the guys at my former combat pistol club was a graduate of several courses at Gunsite, back in the Jeff Cooper days. As such, he very much swore by the .45 ACP (Col. Cooper's opinion of the M1911/.45 ACP is well known). He used to josh me about my 9mm being a ".45 set on stun".
On the same day I walked into club practice with my brand new Sig/Sauer P226 in .40 S&W, HE walks in with another brand new P226, but in 9mm. After joshing him a while, I finally asked him why this rather dramatic change of opinion. He said that it was due to his own anecdotal survey of various folks, including paramedics, Navy SEALs, police officers, etc. He said that the conclusion he came to was that the REAL manstopper was the rifle. The hand gun was just a stop gap measure, not as good as a rifle but better than empty hands. As such, shot placement and high capacity (In order to have more chances of getting that one, crucial hit while under the stress of an lethal force encounter), in the opinion of the people he talked to, seemed to be of much greater importance than the power of the hand gun round, which is really marginal at best.

BTW, my personal choice of the .40 S&W is because it struck me as a very nice compromise between power, round capacity and manageable compactness.
Brad "butterfly" Burklund (From these forums) sent me a very long, but very interesting article, a couple of years back by an avid handgunner who'd been a police officer and is currently an autopsy technician. What he had to say in his article tended to bear out my deduction, as he stated that, anecdotally, the three most lethal rounds (Based on the people he saw laid out for autopsy) were the .45 ACP, the .357 magnum and the .40 S&W.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
#426366 - 04/06/10 02:08 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: TheCrab
Im doing a security course, and a lot of swat police and whatnot use people in my course for general testing.

we we're given rubber knives with felt on the edge, and told to attack the (trained) police and try to "kill" them. they had to disarm us. we did it about 100 times. and out of that, every single officer got cut, and 60% of them we're cut fatally.

Then we did something with replica glocks which shot paint, they would start 5 metres away, charge us and try to get the gun. (none of us have gun training) anyway, at close range like that, we hit the officer about 40% of the time. at over 8 metres we could not land a hit except by chance.

Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up


One thing that bothers me about this type of data gathering method is that the rubber knife attacker attacks with 100% because there is 0% chance of actually hurting their victim. The defender only defends with maybe 60% at best because they are only roleplaying and don't want to really hurt the rubber-knife attackers. I don't know how the statistics would change if the defenders actually fought for their lives (not holding back)using well rehersed and effective technique. I would say, however, I wouldn't want to be attacking them with a rubber knife if they were...

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, Dedicated1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga