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#417977 - 04/07/09 05:27 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Point being, for what we did, at close range, knives are far more dangerous than guns, and I would question any knife disarm techniques safety and effectiveness, as for guns, if someone points one at you who doesnt know what they are doing, theres a fair chance of being able to leg it if your over 8 metres.

Interesting stuff to consider and weigh up




I don't really understand what you are getting at here, are you saying knife defense is totally useless, or are you just questioning it's success rate?

I've never met anyone in my life who teaches weapon disarms that claims they have a high success rate, common sense should tell you that any such technique is an 'oh crap' situation.

It's nice to see that FA.com hasn't lost its penchant for creating nonstop straw man arguments to knock down;)

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#417978 - 04/08/09 11:18 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
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Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

Just for clarity, what was the criteria your using for "Fatal cut"




cuts to the jugular, heart stabs, stuff like that. anything that would kill you basically lol



Quote:

I don't really understand what you are getting at here, are you saying knife defense is totally useless, or are you just questioning it's success rate



bit of both. im saying anyone whos got it in their head that they can disarm a knife succesfully should think again, and im saying that this should have some bearing on what they do choose to do.

Quote:

I've never met anyone in my life who teaches weapon disarms that claims they have a high success rate, common sense should tell you that any such technique is an 'oh crap' situation.



Unfortunately common sense seems to be rare among the martial art community from my experience. And every second person who does a knife disarm drill in karate may think it will always work. I just posted this for a bit of interesting conversation/info, and maybe to discourage people from using that option.

I personally know a lot of people that have done weapons disarm training that think they can do it, so its not a rare delusion. Not to say you shouldnt try if you have no other choice, but dont have any false expectations?

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#417979 - 04/08/09 11:52 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Quote:

Just for clarity, what was the criteria your using for "Fatal cut"




cuts to the jugular, heart stabs, stuff like that. anything that would kill you basically lol






Thanks Crab, Thats what I thought,

Some consider any cut/stab at all to be fatal when in reality death from a single cut is relatively uncommon, the vast majority of deaths from knife attacks have multiple cuts/stabs wounds.

Most people who face a committed knife attacker will bleed, knife defense is all about minimizing damage.

I don't have time to ramble like normal ( stop cheering) so I'll leave it there and might return later with a more in depth discussion from the dragons mind.
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#417980 - 04/09/09 01:53 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well I don't know who you're associating with TheCrab but I don't know anyone including people who teach such techniques that claims they are foolproof.

In fact they all pretty much say "you're probably screwed", so the options are to not train it at all, or to train things that might stand some small chance of helping you in those situations and minimize the damage. We can debate what those may be...

But once again, all you did was set up a straw man of these mysterious people who think they can safely disarm anyone. I don't know who you associate with MA wise, but I haven't run into anywhere near that amount of people who claim knife defenses are any kind of sure thing.

Furthermore, i've literally never met ANYONE in my time training in the martial arts who though ANYTHING would "always work".

Maybe it would be good to stay away from those kind of blanket statements if we want to have a real discussion about this.

Can you tell me a bit more about the actual set up of how this worked? Like parameters of the drilling etc? How close to the officers did you start the attack, were they permitted any kind of guard or did they start from a neutral posture...these kinds of things.

You need to define your opinion here too I think, what kind of knife defence do you think is worth doing? There's everything from Krav Maga to the dog brothers, do you think it's all worthless or what?

Also 40% being non-fatal cuts is not a small number when dealing with weapons it seems to me.

What were these police "trained" in specifically?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/09/09 02:07 AM)

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#417981 - 04/09/09 03:48 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I think you are being unfair here Zach. Crab is in the process of getting his security operatives license in Australia, and has relayed his experience from a days training, where paintball guns and marker knives were used to highlight how easily one will get injured if encountering the real thing in a live environment.

All he has done is taken on the truth from that lesson, and posted his observations for others to discuss, or share their own experiences in the field.

Your only contributions so far are to complain about the opening post. Twice.
If you want to re-frame the thread with your obeservations by way of response, then great- thats rather the whole point of the thread isnt it?
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#417982 - 04/09/09 03:57 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Cord]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well it seems like the original thread was posted with a definite agenda, I could be wrong but it's my impression that whatever the results of TheCrabs experience, he would frame them to validate what he already believes on this subject.

That said, again I could be wrong, and if i'm out of line sorry.

So yeah, i'd like to hear more details about how the drill was conducted, and about what kind of training the police involved had. And I suppose what (if any) kind of knife training the knife-wielders had.

Were any of them able to disarm you guys, and if so, was there a common theme in how they did so?

For the record I don't put alot of faith in unarmed knife defence, it's definitely not my thing.

However I also reject the notion put forth by some people that it's a completely fruitless thing to do, or that there is no value in learning such techniques, or in training for this kind of thing.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/09/09 04:07 AM)

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#417983 - 04/09/09 07:54 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

he would frame them to validate what he already believes on this subject.



Im just posting something interesting. not even an opinion

All the exercise was, was a 4 metre gap, the person with the knife could attack in whatever fashion and in full force the defender, (police/swat) with the felt knife. They had to get it out of our hands or drop us without being "killed", we also did similar with holstered/non holstered paint glocks.

None of us had any experience or knife training, and obviously the police were trained heavily, which makes it slightly more realistic in terms of results, and as I said the gun results varied.

Some of them disarmed us, but all of them got cut at least a few times on the way. There wasnt really a common theme, as we tried different approaches every time.


Quote:

However I also reject the notion put forth by some people that it's a completely fruitless thing to do, or that there is no value in learning such techniques, or in training for this kind of thing.



As I said, I didnt dismiss it as fruitless. Unlikely, yes, but if you have no other choice you have to do what you have to do, whether they attack you with a switchblade or a tyrannosaurus.

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#417984 - 04/09/09 08:18 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I've been informed by high level combat gun guys here in the States, that within 6 feet, a person armed with a knife is potentially more lethal than one armed with a gun. There are various reasons for this with one main one being that either an ambush was planned or, initiative is taken and the advantage is not lost. People with blades get the jump on people before they can respond by drawing their weapon.

Obviously, bullets kill at any range. Knives require close range. I think it has to do with the fact that blade armed opponents are closing rapidly and are highly aggressive as they come in, pumping the weapon viciously while the gun man often is in "reactive" mode, typically trying move backward to create space. This often puts someone off balance if they are not highly trained. Being "reactive" here puts you behind the curve.

I think it's possible that many people with firearms simply aren't adequately trained for this situation. They go to ranges and shoot. They don't do combat handgunning or scenario training against people armed with knives who are trying desperately to close distance.

Just some thoughts.


-John

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#417985 - 04/09/09 02:58 PM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Thanks for the additional info TheCrab, it's good food for thought.

I gotta ask though, do you know what the police were actually trained in? I have no idea how this works in your neck of the woods but from what i've seen here there is a wide range of cqc training levels in law enforcement, from highly to very little.

I ask because of the 'heavily trained' comment, it would be nice to know what they were heavily trained in..like if they were all trained in the same knife retention program or something.

Is there a standardized knife retention training or something for police there?

I don't know for sure, but from my exposure I wouldn't say most of the cops i've met here are 'heavily trained' in this kind of thing unless they're seeking it out themselves.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/09/09 03:01 PM)

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#417986 - 04/13/09 09:44 AM Re: interesting knife/gun facts [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jkogas - Obviously, bullets kill at any range. Knives require close range. I think it has to do with the fact that blade armed opponents are closing rapidly and are highly aggressive as they come in, pumping the weapon viciously while the gun man often is in "reactive" mode, typically trying move backward to create space.

456 - This is a good point and the main point of my comment is that a gun can cause damage at almost any range even from the ground or falling or running firing as you retreat. The knife vs. Gun is a mute point unless you are very skilled, aggressive and still if the gunner trade shots for stabs you both loose. Unless you trap the gunners arm and stab him until he is dead if you can control a man fighting for his life that long. Even from the ground dying he can empty the gun in you, it takes mear seconds. Only in rare situation is a knife vs. a Gun a win win situation. IMHO.
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