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#417954 - 04/04/09 10:05 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hi Victor

As I infered I'm no fan of traditional (i.e. JKA) performances of Shotokan kata. I'm curious though as to the principles you speak of, what did your shotokan teacher drill into you that Brennan skips?
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#417955 - 04/04/09 12:20 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
what kind of application? i don't know how to answer that, lol. there are only 2 kinds of application i know of, 1) the kind that work, and 2) crap.

and that kata was not changed for a competition, where do you get off saying that? this is the way sensei nishiyama taught the kata in the ITKF.
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#417956 - 04/04/09 05:51 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

what kind of application? i don't know how to answer that, lol. there are only 2 kinds of application i know of, 1) the kind that work, and 2) crap.

and that kata was not changed for a competition, where do you get off saying that? this is the way sensei nishiyama taught the kata in the ITKF.




LOL

I don't get off anywhere, I've a right to my opinions and I certainly have a right to offer up a little slack, which is what I was doing. If he had altered his performance of the kata for the comp then I couldve imagined he might have a better understanding of the form than is transmitted in what he shows.
If it is as you say then all he's doing is parotting Nishiyama, and while I respect the JKA's first generation there's an undisputed lack of knowledge in their stock when it comes to understanding kata and using all but the most basic aspects of the art.

Within the sub-groups of effective application and crap application there is alot of variation.

Are his applications literal translations of the movements? Are they all taught in the standard one-step format or does he use continuous drills? Does he apply techniques from different distances or from contact? Does he start with the kata movement and then add a throw/choke/lock/head kick that doesn't use kata movement? Does he use the kata to make blocks/evasions and then add strikes inbetween not present in the form sequence? Does he do a positional analysis where the connecting or surrounding movements are less important than the freezeframe image of a technique or does he apply whole sequences together?

As you can see a little thought brings a lot of options, or you simply couldve given some examples.
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#417957 - 04/04/09 08:15 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"If he had altered his performance of the kata for the comp then I couldve imagined he might have a better understanding of the form than is transmitted in what he shows."

nothing has been altered for a competition.

"If it is as you say then all he's doing is parotting Nishiyama"

parotting? wtf? he was tought by (among others) sensei Nishiyama.

"and while I respect the JKA's first generation there's an undisputed lack of knowledge in their stock when it comes to understanding kata and using all but the most basic aspects of the art."

i can personally say that sensei Minarik's application is some of the best i've ever seen when it comes to kata. he has an understanding above and beyond just about every single shotokan practioner i have ever seen, herd of or met personally.

i appreciate your input on the video, which is why i asked for it, infact i always have listened to your input on shotokan things. but i have to say i think your making some freakishly outlandish claims. how can you take a look at a solo kata preformance and question the understanding of application? even if this kata is slightly different from your "standard" version of it, don't you think that there might happen to be good reasons why its being done in a different way?

btw, i'm perfectly ok with you not liking the kata, lol.

*Edit*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWstCjE3eHw&feature=related

here's another video that shows a little application.


Edited by student_of_life (04/04/09 08:26 PM)
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#417958 - 04/04/09 11:08 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

i can personally say that sensei Minarik's application is some of the best i've ever seen when it comes to kata. he has an understanding above and beyond just about every single shotokan practioner i have ever seen, herd of or met personally.




Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWstCjE3eHw&feature=related

here's another video that shows a little application.




Student, does this video contain some the best application you've seen when it comes to kata?
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#417959 - 04/04/09 11:41 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
yes and no.

yes because of the way he using the principles of various kata movement. even if it is against karate style straight punches.

and no because its just a short little video i found after i made my earlier post. it hardly contains everything that i've learned from sensei Minarik.
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#417960 - 04/04/09 11:41 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
After reading this discussion chain on Nijushiho I’d like to explain my comments further.

I would agree that Mr. Brennan’s kata performance is a JKA performance, no doubt as his instructor Nishiyama Sensei teaches. On the other hand the JKA is not the sole arbriter of Funakoshi Sensei’ art.

If you compare his Nijushiho performance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rqhlBsliFo to the Old JKA Nijushiho performance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2niRHnqQU you can see there is some difference in some of the movements dynamics.

Of course Mr. Brennan’s kata is a competition performance, but I accept it’s very good JKA standard. I just don’t feel right with the ‘pause’ in that kata no matter the source or the original instructor. On the other hand I will no longer stand in judgment of others choices , no longer attending tournaments or judging in them either. I can only give my personal preference.

The Nijushiho I practice and teach, from my study with Tristan Sutrisno over a quarter a century ago, has a vastly different body dynamics in execution. And until my participation in the internet age, roughly in the last 10 years, I never paid much attention to JKA versions as there was not much public JKA to be seen in my area of the USA.

When I saw the difference, I had no reason to consider anything but what I had been taught.

In the case of my instructor and friend, Tristan Sutrisno, he practices Shotokan as his father taught him, and his father trained in Japan, with Funakoshi Ginchin in the 1930’s, and returned to Indonesia prior to the onset of WWII. I have no idea which is right, more original, whatever, I only know what I’ve seen, and Tristan does incredible things. He was sharing what is likely his families ‘bunaki’ of Shotokan long before any school I knew of in Penna was even mentioning the term. His ‘bunkai’ is much closer to the old description of ‘kakushite – hidden hand’ given by Demura Fumio back in the early 70’s, than the useage most commonly described today. Simplest they’re private ways to break an opponent (or whatever) that you cannot intuit from the kata.

I’m sure Minarik Sensei’s application studies are more than on that video, but they are also techniques and if it works………..

I have studied a little bit of the Sutrisno ‘bunkai’, but not from focused study, rather sharing in friendship. My own study of fractals of movement as a weapon, as well as the movement, or the method of stepping and/or turning as a weapon in their own right is a different answer. (Which I’ve gone into a little detail at FA.com over the years, and occasionally share outside of my own school at friends schools too.)


I think the closest comparison I can make is to have you watch Tristan Sutrisno’s performance of Gojushiho at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyVT5pkJqf4 and allow you to compare the dynamics of his kata to anyone else’s in the JKA. I don’t care if you like it or not, it just makes my point about the dynamics I’ve studied and why I feel as I do. The effort choice is yours.

BTW that isn’t his best performance, just a given day he decided to enter that division for fun. His art also teaches Gojushiho, Gojushiho-Dai and Gojushiho-Sho – the last two closer to the JKA versions, but again with his dynamics.
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#417961 - 04/05/09 04:35 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
My friend who has taken less than year of Karate laughed at that vid you posted.

1. He learned what was being shown within his first 4 months as it was expected for everyone to know if not be competent in such basic techniques by that time.
2. That it was a black-belt class that was being taught.

Student, this is why people are disparraging of JKA derived karate. Yudansha should not need to be taught this. Brown belts shoud not need to be taught this.

His use of the application is competent although the rigid nature of his movement would leave him vulnerable to anyone not using shotokan basic punching, however I can accept that he at least (if not the students shown) might be better than that. He's certainly fast!
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#417962 - 04/05/09 05:19 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
what did he find funny about the video? that it was basic to him?

"His use of the application is competent although the rigid nature of his movement would leave him vulnerable to anyone not using shotokan basic punching"

thats debatable, lol.
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#417963 - 04/07/09 07:42 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

what did he find funny about the video? that it was basic to him?




Yes, as I listed above, the material being taught to a class of black belts is basic, for introduction at green belt level at absolute latest. His ability to apply it in something other than 1-step is a plus, but it's childs play. That's what was funny, especially after hearing that it's some of the best bunkai you've ever seen.

Quote:

"His use of the application is competent although the rigid nature of his movement would leave him vulnerable to anyone not using shotokan basic punching"


thats debatable, lol.




Not really. He teaches a fighting gaurd that hangs over his belly. He trains with people who feel the need to move in straight lines, freeze-frame themselves at the end of each punch and stop striking after each single shot that lands.

I'm not saying he's not skilled enough to combat non JKA punching, he may well be, but his methods as described would disadvantage him.
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