FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 65 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 3
THEFOREVERMAN 3
MattJ 2
royal 2
cxt 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#417944 - 04/02/09 09:10 PM Nijushiho
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417945 - 04/03/09 05:49 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
As a traditional performance I don't think it was very good, it lacked any energy or life, although it was fairly focussed (whatever that really means) and he did start and finnish on the same spot! LOL.

IMO most traditionalist shotokan performances of this kata completely miss the point of it. This one was no exception.

In addition though, in an effort to personalise the movements he actually managed to skip a number of the more subtle techniques all together.

Find someone with some idea of this forms application and you might get a better performance.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417946 - 04/03/09 11:01 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
which subtle techniques did he skip?
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417947 - 04/03/09 02:53 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
No next to nothing about Karate, but I have posted some stuff on Frank Brennan of the KUGB (which was tied to the JKA for a very long time) before. Lots of clips of him doing this kata online. If nothing else, it serves as a visual comparison. I couldn't say which is "better" due to my karate ignorance, but Mr Brennans certainly seems to have a bit more snap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rqhlBsliFo
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#417948 - 04/03/09 03:03 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
1. His execution of the opening move left out an important kamae
2. From the punch he skiped the climbing movement which makes the elbow effective, (he was going for the lock application which is far inferior and limits the sequence IMO).
3. He pulled arms straight back into the chamber for the u-punch instead of the circling movement
4. Glossed over the age-uke chamber after the wedge block
5. After second side kick over-hooked the hooking block which looses the sense of timing for the application.
6. Second u-punch glosses over the chamber again
7. circular block at the end of the kata he draws his hands into his harra

Some of these are simple stylistic disagreements, some are to do with a diffferent idea of application for the move. Most of it though I think just misses the point.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417949 - 04/03/09 04:28 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
thanks for the reply.

i think the differences you notice are style one's, i can assure you that sensei Minarik most definatly is not missing the point of this kata or its application. i've attended a few of his seminars over the past few years and he's always been a role model of technique for me.

not that im getting defensive over it, lol. i was just curious about what other people thought at first glance. thanks again.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417950 - 04/03/09 04:38 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Prizewriter]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i've watched Mr Brennans preformance on youtube alot, thanks for posting them here.

snappy movement can be a little tricky to judge, i only have limited expirence with karate as well, but one thing i've learned is that snap dosn't mean power or anything for that matter. it sure dose look nice to watch though, lol.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417951 - 04/03/09 05:03 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Looking good... at the end of the day, isn't that what MA are all about?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#417952 - 04/03/09 08:16 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Prizewriter]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

I think the differences you notice are style one's, i can assure you that sensei Minarik most definatly is not missing the point of this kata or its application. i've attended a few of his seminars over the past few years and he's always been a role model of technique for me.




His technique was good, I especially liked the slightly shorter stances. Sadly though I don't think the observations I made are purely stylistic. Nijushiho is a pretty easy kata to pull applications out of, however it is one of those forms with a very clear core principle which is obscurred by traditional performance. I've yet to meet a traditionalist who got it. Not to mention that for some of the points I made it's either there or it's not.

That said I do acknowledge that some folk change their performances for tournament. I just don't see the point myself. If your going to do a form do it properly.

Quote:


i've watched Mr Brennans preformance on youtube alot, thanks for posting them here.

snappy movement can be a little tricky to judge, i only have limited expirence with karate as well, but one thing i've learned is that snap dosn't mean power or anything for that matter. it sure dose look nice to watch though, lol.





IMO Brennan gives a better traditional performance, much more life and intent in his movements, as though he was visualising a fight where the other guy seemed to be aiming for style.

Snap doesn't necessarily mean alot but Brennans performances have much more than just snap, and I am by no means a traditionalist or a fan/follower of the JKA way of doing things.

Quote:

Looking good... at the end of the day, isn't that what MA are all about?




For the most part it's what Shotokan's about.

Student, what kind of application for this kata does the guy in question teach and how do his students practice?


Edited by Shonuff (04/03/09 08:19 PM)
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417953 - 04/03/09 09:52 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
hmmmmm. to be honest I can see that Mr. Brennan is a highly skilled individual, but watching his Nijushiho performance is painful as it violates all of the principles that were drilled into me for 10 years with my Shotokan instructor, and most of the modern tournament shotokan/shito ryu, etc. are the same.

In all good conscience I don't see the stop and pose method of kata practice as having meaning, it robs one of my powerful tools, the movement between techniques.

Likewise my instructo's bunkai were not derived from the kata but from different principles.

Of course if you define traditional as what Shotokan seems to have become, then it's likely a great traditional performance, but it's also possible the Shotokan I studied, which originated from the 1930's instruction of my friend/instructor's father is more classical than traditional in intent.

different strokes for different folks,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#417954 - 04/04/09 10:05 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Hi Victor

As I infered I'm no fan of traditional (i.e. JKA) performances of Shotokan kata. I'm curious though as to the principles you speak of, what did your shotokan teacher drill into you that Brennan skips?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417955 - 04/04/09 12:20 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
what kind of application? i don't know how to answer that, lol. there are only 2 kinds of application i know of, 1) the kind that work, and 2) crap.

and that kata was not changed for a competition, where do you get off saying that? this is the way sensei nishiyama taught the kata in the ITKF.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417956 - 04/04/09 05:51 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

what kind of application? i don't know how to answer that, lol. there are only 2 kinds of application i know of, 1) the kind that work, and 2) crap.

and that kata was not changed for a competition, where do you get off saying that? this is the way sensei nishiyama taught the kata in the ITKF.




LOL

I don't get off anywhere, I've a right to my opinions and I certainly have a right to offer up a little slack, which is what I was doing. If he had altered his performance of the kata for the comp then I couldve imagined he might have a better understanding of the form than is transmitted in what he shows.
If it is as you say then all he's doing is parotting Nishiyama, and while I respect the JKA's first generation there's an undisputed lack of knowledge in their stock when it comes to understanding kata and using all but the most basic aspects of the art.

Within the sub-groups of effective application and crap application there is alot of variation.

Are his applications literal translations of the movements? Are they all taught in the standard one-step format or does he use continuous drills? Does he apply techniques from different distances or from contact? Does he start with the kata movement and then add a throw/choke/lock/head kick that doesn't use kata movement? Does he use the kata to make blocks/evasions and then add strikes inbetween not present in the form sequence? Does he do a positional analysis where the connecting or surrounding movements are less important than the freezeframe image of a technique or does he apply whole sequences together?

As you can see a little thought brings a lot of options, or you simply couldve given some examples.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417957 - 04/04/09 08:15 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"If he had altered his performance of the kata for the comp then I couldve imagined he might have a better understanding of the form than is transmitted in what he shows."

nothing has been altered for a competition.

"If it is as you say then all he's doing is parotting Nishiyama"

parotting? wtf? he was tought by (among others) sensei Nishiyama.

"and while I respect the JKA's first generation there's an undisputed lack of knowledge in their stock when it comes to understanding kata and using all but the most basic aspects of the art."

i can personally say that sensei Minarik's application is some of the best i've ever seen when it comes to kata. he has an understanding above and beyond just about every single shotokan practioner i have ever seen, herd of or met personally.

i appreciate your input on the video, which is why i asked for it, infact i always have listened to your input on shotokan things. but i have to say i think your making some freakishly outlandish claims. how can you take a look at a solo kata preformance and question the understanding of application? even if this kata is slightly different from your "standard" version of it, don't you think that there might happen to be good reasons why its being done in a different way?

btw, i'm perfectly ok with you not liking the kata, lol.

*Edit*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWstCjE3eHw&feature=related

here's another video that shows a little application.


Edited by student_of_life (04/04/09 08:26 PM)
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417958 - 04/04/09 11:08 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

i can personally say that sensei Minarik's application is some of the best i've ever seen when it comes to kata. he has an understanding above and beyond just about every single shotokan practioner i have ever seen, herd of or met personally.




Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWstCjE3eHw&feature=related

here's another video that shows a little application.




Student, does this video contain some the best application you've seen when it comes to kata?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#417959 - 04/04/09 11:41 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
yes and no.

yes because of the way he using the principles of various kata movement. even if it is against karate style straight punches.

and no because its just a short little video i found after i made my earlier post. it hardly contains everything that i've learned from sensei Minarik.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417960 - 04/04/09 11:41 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
After reading this discussion chain on Nijushiho I’d like to explain my comments further.

I would agree that Mr. Brennan’s kata performance is a JKA performance, no doubt as his instructor Nishiyama Sensei teaches. On the other hand the JKA is not the sole arbriter of Funakoshi Sensei’ art.

If you compare his Nijushiho performance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rqhlBsliFo to the Old JKA Nijushiho performance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2niRHnqQU you can see there is some difference in some of the movements dynamics.

Of course Mr. Brennan’s kata is a competition performance, but I accept it’s very good JKA standard. I just don’t feel right with the ‘pause’ in that kata no matter the source or the original instructor. On the other hand I will no longer stand in judgment of others choices , no longer attending tournaments or judging in them either. I can only give my personal preference.

The Nijushiho I practice and teach, from my study with Tristan Sutrisno over a quarter a century ago, has a vastly different body dynamics in execution. And until my participation in the internet age, roughly in the last 10 years, I never paid much attention to JKA versions as there was not much public JKA to be seen in my area of the USA.

When I saw the difference, I had no reason to consider anything but what I had been taught.

In the case of my instructor and friend, Tristan Sutrisno, he practices Shotokan as his father taught him, and his father trained in Japan, with Funakoshi Ginchin in the 1930’s, and returned to Indonesia prior to the onset of WWII. I have no idea which is right, more original, whatever, I only know what I’ve seen, and Tristan does incredible things. He was sharing what is likely his families ‘bunaki’ of Shotokan long before any school I knew of in Penna was even mentioning the term. His ‘bunkai’ is much closer to the old description of ‘kakushite – hidden hand’ given by Demura Fumio back in the early 70’s, than the useage most commonly described today. Simplest they’re private ways to break an opponent (or whatever) that you cannot intuit from the kata.

I’m sure Minarik Sensei’s application studies are more than on that video, but they are also techniques and if it works………..

I have studied a little bit of the Sutrisno ‘bunkai’, but not from focused study, rather sharing in friendship. My own study of fractals of movement as a weapon, as well as the movement, or the method of stepping and/or turning as a weapon in their own right is a different answer. (Which I’ve gone into a little detail at FA.com over the years, and occasionally share outside of my own school at friends schools too.)


I think the closest comparison I can make is to have you watch Tristan Sutrisno’s performance of Gojushiho at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyVT5pkJqf4 and allow you to compare the dynamics of his kata to anyone else’s in the JKA. I don’t care if you like it or not, it just makes my point about the dynamics I’ve studied and why I feel as I do. The effort choice is yours.

BTW that isn’t his best performance, just a given day he decided to enter that division for fun. His art also teaches Gojushiho, Gojushiho-Dai and Gojushiho-Sho – the last two closer to the JKA versions, but again with his dynamics.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#417961 - 04/05/09 04:35 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
My friend who has taken less than year of Karate laughed at that vid you posted.

1. He learned what was being shown within his first 4 months as it was expected for everyone to know if not be competent in such basic techniques by that time.
2. That it was a black-belt class that was being taught.

Student, this is why people are disparraging of JKA derived karate. Yudansha should not need to be taught this. Brown belts shoud not need to be taught this.

His use of the application is competent although the rigid nature of his movement would leave him vulnerable to anyone not using shotokan basic punching, however I can accept that he at least (if not the students shown) might be better than that. He's certainly fast!
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417962 - 04/05/09 05:19 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
what did he find funny about the video? that it was basic to him?

"His use of the application is competent although the rigid nature of his movement would leave him vulnerable to anyone not using shotokan basic punching"

thats debatable, lol.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417963 - 04/07/09 07:42 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

what did he find funny about the video? that it was basic to him?




Yes, as I listed above, the material being taught to a class of black belts is basic, for introduction at green belt level at absolute latest. His ability to apply it in something other than 1-step is a plus, but it's childs play. That's what was funny, especially after hearing that it's some of the best bunkai you've ever seen.

Quote:

"His use of the application is competent although the rigid nature of his movement would leave him vulnerable to anyone not using shotokan basic punching"


thats debatable, lol.




Not really. He teaches a fighting gaurd that hangs over his belly. He trains with people who feel the need to move in straight lines, freeze-frame themselves at the end of each punch and stop striking after each single shot that lands.

I'm not saying he's not skilled enough to combat non JKA punching, he may well be, but his methods as described would disadvantage him.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#417964 - 04/07/09 11:13 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
#417965 - 04/17/09 09:16 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

The base of CNOMAA, my first extended training in MA (as Judo at 10-12 w/ master Ed Mally in Tampa so long ago dont count), is Shotokan and my late Master Ngo Dong DID alter forms and purists might notice; but, in Judging a forms ring I look for
*Can I hear explosive exhale on blocks and strikes unless
in Tension where I want to hear breath and tech end same
*solid long stances, w/o so long poor transition results
*crisp non-over extension of blocks w/ eyes forward
*solid strikes eyes forward and as blocks facial
Expression eyes focus so I can "see" opponent
*Head and Eye focus and movement prior to 'addressing'
new 'opponent' with good facial expression
( In Iaido tho no expression aside calm relaxed face)
*at least 1-2 good kiai at 'key' points in Kata,
*as to a pause, if used, should be not for posing,
it should show springy readiness while visually assesing
360 the possible end or next threat, so I need visual
scanning w/ intensity reflected in eyes and face
*Crisp entrance, jog from on deck to center, crisp bow
w/ jog to approach judges, scanning eye contact w/
Judges while voice projects so I know audience can hear
"Judges my name is..", My Style is, The Form today is..
*GOOD End, I should not hear heavy breathing, a scan of
potential remaining opponents prior to move to bow out
slow calm poised bow and placid face attention to
Judges till scored and bow to exit
*Form level commensurate to rank

I liked seeing traditional tournament form again.. not the new age Team Paul Mitchell CRAP, all flash no substance, never used to be like that. Pimping for ratings(I spit)

I liked much about His Performance, score tho accurate, no Explosive Kiai anywhere and level to easy for Rank, the shorter stances allow for good transition but rear leg bent, head snaps could be more crisp. But overall good technique and focus, and I realize some people will perform a Form below their rank, as forms can ALWAYS be improved and to demonstrate a superlative lower level form is a mark of good Dan Rank MA.

But, I like sparring, so who am I to comment. Thanks for video, miss the old days

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

Top
#417966 - 05/14/09 05:51 PM Re: Nijushiho [Re: student_of_life]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
I enjoyed that performance. Very clean. And he wound up only 2-3 inches back from where he started, very close to the original spot, a key criteria for me.

Kakushidi

Top
#421690 - 08/18/09 08:28 AM Re: Nijushiho [Re: Shonuff]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Shonuff
If it is as you say then all he's doing is parotting Nishiyama, and while I respect the JKA's first generation there's an undisputed lack of knowledge in their stock when it comes to understanding kata and using all but the most basic aspects of the art.


This seems odd to me. Funakoshi's Karate do Kyohan had some good applications. The updated version (Nyumon) was "cleaned up".

Seeing that I graded recently on Meikyo and have gotten some good throws out of it, and the judo base of some of the early high ranking students, I think their level of ignorance of effective bunkai is overstated. It is apparent they lost what was being taught by the Okinawan masters and never passed on a culture of truly analysing kata.
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga