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#417779 - 03/31/09 12:37 AM mushin/nirvina as temporary state
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,
thought I'd post sometin different.

Anyone experience thoughtlessness? It cant be described nor related only experienced.

This state also is akin to having the brains 'gatekeepers', Thalamus, hippocmpus and amygadla, disabled so that an overload of typically filtered errata of sensory input is allowed as to shutdown or 'overload' the frontal cortex as to render one incapable of "normal daily" thought processes. (WORDS)(What does a baby experience before WORDS)

The achievement of such a state is intended to be temporary otherwise...well this society would rightly "commit" an individual permanently in this state for their own safety.

Just trying to post something others may not be aware of, one may have epiphany to such a degree but still must live a bodily life.

It's when the trap of desire for extended periods in this state where some go awry. Animals and the dain bramaged live in the moment but still have some grounding in LIFE, any comments on this aspect of Experience....or did I just make a dead end post to replace the "why are we alive" post?

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
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#417780 - 04/01/09 06:02 PM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: karl314285]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


Anyone experience thoughtlessness?




Every time I catch an episode of 'Stacked'
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#417781 - 04/01/09 06:37 PM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: Cord]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

UHHH, I dont watch TV so 'Stacked' is hopefully not about a casino... ya know:)

I live where the University of Florida is...so I guess whenever I leave the house I experience repetitive periods of same mindlessness, also reaffirms belief in a higher power.

-Karl. Peach. uh, nevermind
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417782 - 04/01/09 06:38 PM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: karl314285]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
No mind really can only ever be a temporary state, not because it causes brain damage, but because for as long as you have to function in the outside world, you will have to think. Mushin is a natural outcome of reaching some understanding of anatman (no-self). Recognising that there is no essential self should lead to not being attached to any particular thought that arises.

Although there are periods where the mind is totally free from any thought whatsover--it is only temporary. One of the points of something like shamatha mediation is to recognize how thoughts constantly bubble to the surface. This may slow down at some point, but there will always be some thoughts. Even the Buddha had thoughts (if not he wouldn't have said anything!). So the trick here is to not be attached to your thoughts, either by labeling them as 'just a thought' or some other method, and then letting it dissolve again. Then for moment the mind is empty, then another thought will appear. For some, this moment becomes longer and longer, but there will always be a thought to bubble forth.

WATCH OUT FOR THAT BUS!

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#417783 - 04/03/09 08:41 AM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: karl314285]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

Hi,
thought I'd post sometin different.

Anyone experience thoughtlessness? It cant be described nor related only experienced.

This state also is akin to having the brains 'gatekeepers', Thalamus, hippocmpus and amygadla, disabled so that an overload of typically filtered errata of sensory input is allowed as to shutdown or 'overload' the frontal cortex as to render one incapable of "normal daily" thought processes. (WORDS)(What does a baby experience before WORDS)

The achievement of such a state is intended to be temporary otherwise...well this society would rightly "commit" an individual permanently in this state for their own safety.

Just trying to post something others may not be aware of, one may have epiphany to such a degree but still must live a bodily life.

It's when the trap of desire for extended periods in this state where some go awry. Animals and the dain bramaged live in the moment but still have some grounding in LIFE, any comments on this aspect of Experience....or did I just make a dead end post to replace the "why are we alive" post?

-Karl. Peace.





Have you experienced "thoughtlessness"?


If so I'd like to see the brain scan of you at that moment to prove that your thalamus, hippocmpus and amygadla were inactive.


I'll be waiting in thoughtfullness.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#417784 - 04/03/09 08:46 AM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Is there a difference between 'thoughtless' and 'thought-less'?

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#417785 - 04/04/09 07:39 AM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: harlan]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

dont know...thoughless either way would be living in the brain stem, autonomic functions like HR, and breathing. Even a rise to the limbic system entails eat sleep run...they may not be thoughts per-say but recognition is involved.
...ehm, knew a person who knew a person in the late 70's took somethin and decided to sit crosslegged on floor, 2hrs later, so I hear...came from or came to and didnt recognize reflection...no thoughts bout anything, tell this person connected bodily movements to reflection movements...flood of words...consciousness??

By Naming the world is consciousness created?

The monks and Abbott at the Zen monastery were I sat, said not to try to focus or stop the flow of words/thought "Be like the opening of a window where thoughts just blow in and out",

An opening...is that a hole in a doughnut or is it just nothing?

-Karl. Peace. Love. Prozac
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417786 - 04/04/09 03:12 PM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: harlan]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Is there a difference between 'thoughtless' and 'thought-less'?




Not sure if the question was rhetorical or not, but I would say yes. 'Thoughtless' generally means acting without regard for another. 'Thought-less', or 'no-mind' is the natural outcome of anatman, which comes to be due to the law of pratityasamutpada (dependent origination). Of course, it's more of circle than a straight line between these things, because no-mind (disattachment from thoughts) is necessary to even see the others.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430845 - 11/10/10 09:10 PM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: Ames]
Zed Offline
Beginner
Stranger

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 4
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Hi all,

It is sometimes said in the meditative tradition that I follow, Tibetan Kagyu, that a Buddha is in a constant state of non-thought, yet there is no destruction of the brain and yet a Buddha is able to act and respond appropriately. Even from a conventional POV it is possible to act spontaneously on instinct or intuition without thought. Yet it is also stated in Buddhism that our two main attachments are our emotions and our thoughts, they are referred to as the two veils that prevent us from being enlightened, the veil of disturbing emotions and the veil of conceptual distortion. So maybe our fear of brain damage is actually an expression of our clinging to our thoughts and helps to strengthen this attachment?
_________________________
Cheers,
Zed

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#430857 - 11/11/10 11:05 AM Re: mushin/nirvina as temporary state [Re: Zed]
Kathryn Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Washington, DC
Zen Buddhism addresses this question more directly than mainstream Buddhism. Zen takes the Taoist idea of spontaneity to a more serious level, with a goal of having a mind that is not exactly 'empty' but does not 'get stuck' on any particular emotion or thought.

This goal might have remained in the province of the monks except for the circumstance that a samurai clan leader became friends with the influential monk Takuan Soho. Munenori wrote a book for his clan descendents that was later published as The Sword and the Mind. In this work, Munenori explains in great detail how the constantly shifting mind is a huge advantage for the warrior and how it applies in battle.



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