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#417680 - 04/03/09 01:28 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2577
Here is a clip of someone discussing Yonkyo:

He mentions he was informed that Yonkyo relates to any area of the body where pressure can be applied. Never heard of that before.

I have seen a 7th Dan from England in a seminar show a pressure point technique, but I can't remember the full ins and outs of it. He used his thumb to hit a pressure point on Ukes hand as he was grabbing it. The Uke was an experienced black belt, but he looked (and sounded) like he was in tremendous pain.

I was never entirely sure about PP in Aikido, but that was more to do with the way I was taught. My regular teacher would make us practice going for the PP first, which I don't think is a great idea regardless of what you are studying.

Trained properly they could be of use in Aikido, but as Eyrie said, is it still "Aikido"?

I also spoke to the DR teacher based in the UK. He said he got into Aikido, then DR, by studying Shiatsu. His Shiatsu teachers studied Aikido. He said Shiatsu influenced his training (I was interested in studying Shiatsu myself so I asked him about it). I never got any specifics from him though, but it was and interesting idea (combining Aikido/DR with Shiatsu study).
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

#417681 - 04/04/09 04:15 AM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
karl314285 Offline

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher

As with all styles things differ. Never heard yonkyo described the way you mention either.

1.)Yonkyo as Oshima Sensei taught was application of striking then an upward pressure to the radial nerve from sankyo. Bassically a fast pain compliance to take uke to ground from sankyo.

Obtain good sankyo (uke on tippy toes and maybe 1/3 a backward rotation to off balance), inner hand maintains sankyo esp if pinky hooks ukes pinky, then

release outer hand (choice here is, to slide up to radial nerve or fully release momentarily to strike radial nerve). Using the base of index finger strike/press in then ggrrriind the radial nerve into the bone (pret near same place ODM would take middle pulse), Pain ensues, use ekes arm as sword and take to ground. For submission repeat the in and 1/4 inch up grind. So it can be aid to pain compliance for throw and replace pin to get uke to tap.

Counter is to curl hand to fist, the muscles help blockade the nerve from offending pain. of course tried as sankyo is applied that curled fist...leads to goykyo

2.)Goykyo is what sounds like you observed during demo. Goykyo like combo of an inward bent sankyo into ikkyo (tenkan or irimi) easy to envision, uke resists early and makes a fist before sankyo fully applied, inside hand grabs wrist (chance to grind same area as yonkyo) while every bouncers fav. wrist bend is applied Elbow points up and foward (so uke thumb faces YOU not, his own mid section , this I believe is a difference from the 'std come along' many perform)

gokyo as given to me also allowed uke on tippy toes, twist flexed fist inward for 1/3 rotation... and the kicker was pain compliance by shoving your Thumb into the nerve between uke thumb and forefinger (PS this PP is called Gokoku in Japanese...I believe, easy to remember as PP to apply so similar).

Uke on ground, twist arm, driving shoulder into ground like screw, applying Gokoku, loosens muscle to apply PP at radial nerve as in yonkyo.

3. As to the idea of "is it Aikido" if PP are used well the aetemi are generally directed at vital PP and as I mentioned in Post after moderator Ames shifted it to the Aikido forum

Having taken Ukemi from Oshima Sensei I reflect two thangs
thets A.)extremely powerful fingers and...well hands/arms yadayadayada point too...
B.) With only some dan rank during testing was the same power, control and pain compliance, not wishing to dubate wit flok it is my.....

***Experiential world in Ki Aikido w/ Oshima Sensei and other schools of blatant PP use which lead me to BELIEVE, I do believe, that PP control during a locking and some 'Harmonizing' throws (Not Atemi talkin bout here) is part and parcel of the Aikido of The Founder...why dont we hear about it?

Experience over a lifetime.
Tohei Sensei may have branched off but Train w/ O'Sensei oh for a while:)
Oshima Sensei when I was working with him had trained 25-30 yrs w/ Tohei Sensei and a good part as Uchi deshi.
So few people are willing to dedicate, with utter humbleness, a lifetime to one Art and Trust One Master that those are the only people who reach this level of understanding. Why should it be given away? Takes time to assess a person and even then we never truly know one another.
Just MHO. I Hear a set of knives all being honed, hark am I the roast for sup today??

-Karl. Abundant Peace
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

#417682 - 04/21/09 01:35 AM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi All,
Preface: if any of these do not work call 911 and start CPR w/in 1 min. You Do have CPR certification as higher ranks,yes?

I've wanted to cover health and revival points and as they were mostly given by Oshima Sensesi I place some here. He never gave a name to them and a more inclusive mention with general (read vague) diagrams is in the book I mentioned in the Philosophy Post in a book by Taisen Deshimaru "The Zen way to the Martial Arts" published by Compass under the "Penguin Group" the one I have is the 1982 1st paperback ed., It may well be out of print so may be best bet.

1.Kikai-Tanden: 3 to four inches below navel between two acupuncture points, grab the loose skin and twist, good for much esp loss of consciousness.

2.Master Dong gave me this one (Master Ernie Cates actually): he didnt name it but Deshimaru does, this was a common in dojo revival, Deshimaru calls this 'Sancho', It uses the knee as massage device, it lies between the shoulder blades and is specifically a titch left of the 5th dorsal vertebrae, yeah... Master Dong just said knee between shoulder blades slightly to left , the patient is pushed to seated... knee placed then bend the unconscious one backwards so knee is pressing this will require two as one needs to support head and helps lower body weight, good if one is choked out and dont come back.

3.two minor/major points for health and revival...are on sole of foot and oodly same PP for pain compliance in technique goykyo...1st is mid plantar surface of foot in the hollow behind 3rd toe, this is deep and requires pressure, use the Thumb and press like all get out( bieleve called Kosan) and is good to maintaingeneral health as well
the other is (never had to try it...cardiac arrhythmia, no pulse, uhhhh Id start 911 and CPR but if someone was directed to try it...way cool if it worked)...It is the soft PP between thumb and fingers ...slow and steadily increasing pressure using both thumb (dorsal aspect of hand , and index finger opposite into palmar surface).

4. Generally these points are for someone with some signs of life, as such ATTENTION to breathing is vital and the diaphragm should be paid attention to Massage by thumbs starting at solar plexus and moving up, light heart massage is also adjunct

5. These are NOT to replace THE 911 AND ABC's of CPR, they are to help reverse the damage is one does not need advanced life support...a crushed trachea is not going to respond to massage, DUH,

6. oh, yeah you hit the brachial plexus on side of neck, this causes muscle spasm of trachea, different critter...Using thumbs massage the two hollows at base of skull (under cerebellum, below occipital bone of skull and the muscle spasm which "sealed the breath", as those in Chin-Na call it, should relax go to the knee in sancho next, UNDER no circumstance should carotid massage be attempted by the untrained.

7. Sometimes its as simple as bringing the unconscious to a seated position and bending them forward and back a few times if not returning from a choke or strike to the carotid bifurcation to release "sealing of the veins and arteries"

***As part of our BB requirements was to be certified in CPR and how to bend head forward w/ pressure for a bloody or broken nose (swallow ~ 1pint of blood and you will vomit profusely), a dislocated elbow NEEDS and X-ray as the olecrenon process can be chipped and left untreated the small piece of bone will die and the tendon ( and so the muscle attached) will just oneday POP offf Forever.
AS Instructors we should all be versed in healing and be certified in the ABC's and following actions of CPR, I recommend and carry a kit with a One way CPR respirator mask (no on wants to get vomit in their mouth, or TB), material for a tourniquet and a way to mark the time tourniquet was placed, even sugar cubes for the diabetic who only just told you their crashing and need sugar.

Boy scouts be prepared or be screw___!

-Karl. Peace.
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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