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#417670 - 03/29/09 12:09 AM PP use in Aikido
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

As MattJ so well put it Where the head goes so to the body will follow"

Oshima Sensei never added this to some Kokyu nage, but some of the LEO in class gave me this one, pressing in the same nerve plexus behind jaw while planting uke head to shoulder, pushing down then up for release to throw.

There was an Irimi nage Oshima Sensei taught from yokomenuchi where the palm heel struck the attacking arm in the hollow of the bicep near the armpit while the other struck the deeper seated plexus below opposite collar bone (in Chin-Na this is considered a 'seal the breath' point.) moving with hara and full intent, knocked ya down and numbed the arm out.

Just thought I'd bring up PP use in Aikido with 2 simple examples. PP control is everywhere, sometimes we just dont see it as such.

-Karl. Peace. A little different ya?? (unless youve been in Aikido, who said the Ki society didnt hurt:)
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#417671 - 03/31/09 03:17 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Interesting topic. I moved this to the Aikido forum, because it specifically deals with Aikido and not pressure points as a 'whole'.

There can be, if the Aikidoka wants to take their practice in that direction, pressure points used at every stage of an Aikido technique--including taking the wrist. My time in Daito Ryu made this quite clear to me. The problem is that your uke has to gradually get used to you using the points, because they do have a negative effect on the body if used to often. I have been told that some DR teachers in Japan only allow their students to train once a week for a year so that they can gradually get used to the points being triggered, if not they will become ill.

I have made people drop to their knees or buckle just by taking their wrist by using the proper points--and this was outside the dojo. If you get the chance to train with a good DR teacher, you might be amazed at how much these locks you have become accustomed to can really, really hurt. I experianced a few from my teacher that made me take a time out afterwards. He wasn't trying to hurt me, or prove something, it was just that when the technique was applied perfectly, it had that effect.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (03/31/09 03:24 PM)

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#417672 - 03/31/09 04:33 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: Ames]
karl314285 Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,
sorry to place in different area. Too true Mr. Ames, while Oshima Sensei did not overtly declare PP were being struck (except yonkyo and nanakyo which He did actually strike then apply pressure, bruises sometimes before bed and these were practiced 1 class every several months)

Oshima Sensei did end class early when rote practice of particularly painful Technique (OR Atemi) was drilled and Instructed us on shiatsu; and, NOW that you mention it, what I thought was just a kindness for pain endurance, the points massaged were different dependent on what was battered, He was restoring Ki flow and often made sure He Himself performed shiatsu on everyone!!!!

So my assumption that the LEO's (three of the dan ranks) were showing me LE PP control Tactics combined w/ Aikido was probably false...they were just showing me stuff beyond my level...why didnt anyone tell me...I made the connection to more PP in Aikido a few years later attending the GPD official emptyhand and baton (foam batons in the right hands hurt) PP control tactics seminars, and why after 2 weekends of beating on each other (and me the cuff dummie) was there no post care???

Domo arigato gozaimasu Ames Sensei

I am making so many connections now my poor feeble brain is going to melt...better go before I drool on the keyboard

Thanks. Karl. Peace
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#417673 - 03/31/09 05:19 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: Ames]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

So a question concerning a technique...
forgive some loss of memory for terminology, the upward sliding block practiced in happo-undo or a tenkan to Ukes attack

after we practiced an atemi to kidney area, dropped to one knee and palm strike the uke inside bend of knee, push to ground and basically perform a submission placing calf in bend of knee and...well aside from evading, wouldnt that be two PP strikes to a pin?

and from what you've mentioned, THATs why taking ukemi from Oshima Sensei "demo"ing ushiro udoroshi, The pain took me to the ground faster, the nerve plexus on each side of neck at the base!!!

Am I close?? Ga, there's more coming back....AAAHHHHH

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417674 - 03/31/09 06:54 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
PP can be used to augment ANY technique - Aikido or otherwise. Truth be known, one doesn't need techniques, if all one knows are principles of bio-mechanics and physics, and an intimate knowledge of the human body...

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#417675 - 03/31/09 07:16 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

So true, having a truly exacting A & P Instructor, then teaching it for 3yrs brought some really weird and bad creations to mind (just my mind anit right and cant get right )

Not to mention posing questions to the Radiologists and other Specialists I worked under. Thankfully most people will probably never know as much about the human body as MD's who take MA.

It's just cool to realize possibly why Oshima Sensei wouldnt have one take ukemi from him for years...I do believe that there are no real "hidden" techniques, just parts to techniques one will not learn until having felt them and made the connections, or whatever.

-Karl. Peace.
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do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417676 - 04/01/09 06:25 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
eyrie:
Quote:

PP can be used to augment ANY technique - Aikido or otherwise. Truth be known, one doesn't need techniques, if all one knows are principles of bio-mechanics and physics, and an intimate knowledge of the human body...




I agree with the latter, but I do wonder if it PP are a case of 'augmenting the technique', or if this is a case of some Aikido having 'lost' something. There are descriptions of O'Sensei grabbing someones wrist and making them scream, and this kind of matches with my experience with DR, where it feels like you are being electrocuted from the start of the movement onwards.

Karl:

Quote:

after we practiced an atemi to kidney area, dropped to one knee and palm strike the uke inside bend of knee, push to ground and basically perform a submission placing calf in bend of knee and...well aside from evading, wouldnt that be two PP strikes to a pin?




I'm having trouble picturing the technique, to be honest. But yes, chances are that all of those atemi are to PP. I find most atemi are (see Budo Renshu for more examples). But it's important to keep in mind that beyond that, there are pressure points that can be involved in the 'grabbing part' of the technique. This is where hinari comes in, and (one of the reasons) why using a sword grip to grab the arm/wrist is so important in Aikido (creates leverage to access these PP without overly increasing tension in Nage).

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#417677 - 04/01/09 07:41 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

... but I do wonder if it PP are a case of 'augmenting the technique', or if this is a case of some Aikido having 'lost' something.


Now, THERE's an interesting question....

To the best of my knowledge, there *may* have been passing remarks as to "hit the XXX point on his XXXX", but generally, there is hardly any mention of it within most of the technical Aikido manuals I've read.

The ONLY reference I've found so far that makes specific reference to PP used in Aikido, is Rick Clark's text on "Martial Arts for the University", where he references Hashimoto's 1964 "Atsukunai Okyu Nyumon" - in which a comparison of 27 kyusho points used in Aikido are used in acupuncture. But neither are hardly textbooks on Aikido techniques per se. If you can point to any references that explicitly say which points to hit, (AND the angle at which to hit/poke/rub etc.) it would make for a really interesting discussion.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, it isn't explicitly taught within most Aikido schools. I myself had to go outside the art to learn this stuff, and reintegrate it into my own practice and understanding.

A senior western practitioner has also mentioned to me, in a post on Aikiweb, that certain Aikikai shihan were known to be particularly brutal in applying certain PP techniques on unsuspecting ukes. So, where did they [these shihan] get this information from? Was it explicitly taught to them, and by whom? Or was it something they had picked up in the course of their own studies and research?

This also brings up an interesting point of research/discussion - did Ueshiba learn this from Sokaku? Or from his other studies, perhaps even from Shinkage-ryu jujitsu? Or elsewhere?

So, it does raise some rather interesting questions... was it in Aikido to begin with? Considering that Aikido is largely the result of the culmination and amalgamation of Ueshiba's own understanding of the various arts that he briefly learnt - could it be that PP knowledge and use is not endemic to the art itself, but rather an adjunct that was gleaned from other sources? And if it wasn't endemic to Aikido to begin with, how could it be "lost"?

OTOH, if it is an integral part of Aikido, then why is the knowledge not more widespread? Unfortunately, we can't go back to Hashimoto to clarify - how did he arrive at the comparison of those 27 kyusho points? Was it something that Ueshiba explicitly taught? Or did he arrive at that conclusion in some other fashion - i.e. through his knowledge of acupuncture and his own practice and interpretation of Aikido?

At what point do we draw the conclusion that PP use and knowledge is/was explicitly inherent in Aikido? How much of that is based on our own knowledge, understanding and interpretation? And how much is gleaned from other sources and reinterpreted and adpated within our own practice? Like what Ueshiba did with the basic foundation of DR and, political considerations aside, "created" Aikido from it?

Just throwing it out there for discussion...


Edited by eyrie (04/01/09 07:44 PM)

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#417678 - 04/02/09 02:01 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

To the best of my knowledge, there *may* have been passing remarks as to "hit the XXX point on his XXXX", but generally, there is hardly any mention of it within most of the technical Aikido manuals I've read.




Very true. But then again, as you of all people know, most of the juicy stuff is left out isn't it?

Quote:

The ONLY reference I've found so far that makes specific reference to PP used in Aikido, is Rick Clark's text on "Martial Arts for the University", where he references Hashimoto's 1964 "Atsukunai Okyu Nyumon" - in which a comparison of 27 kyusho points used in Aikido are used in acupuncture.




Wow, you must have some library. If I'm ever in Oz I'll have to check all that out, lol!

Quote:

If you can point to any references that explicitly say which points to hit, (AND the angle at which to hit/poke/rub etc.) it would make for a really interesting discussion.





Hopefully it can be an interesting disscussion without, because I can't. Then again, I can't read Japanese. I will say that PP is (was) explicitly taught in the Yoshinkan. Of course, that doesn't nesecarily mean that Shioda got it from Ueshiba (he did train a little with the Kodokai). However, I would bet that that is exactly where he got it from. As I said, like so much in Aikido, there isn't much specifics given. My hypothesis is mostly reliant on anecdotes of O'sensei grasp feeling like electricity, and how this matches my own experiance when a high level DR person grabbed my wrist.

Quote:

Also, to the best of my knowledge, it isn't explicitly taught within most Aikido schools. I myself had to go outside the art to learn this stuff, and reintegrate it into my own practice and understanding.




I think most do. But then, most have to do that as well for the bodyskills you that you talk about don't they? It is fairly well established at this point, I think, that there something happened in the passing down of Aikido from Ueshiba's uchideshi to the next generation...some things were lost (not totally though).


Quote:

A senior western practitioner has also mentioned to me, in a post on Aikiweb, that certain Aikikai shihan were known to be particularly brutal in applying certain PP techniques on unsuspecting ukes. So, where did they [these shihan] get this information from? Was it explicitly taught to them, and by whom? Or was it something they had picked up in the course of their own studies and research?





I can't really speculate on this, because I don't know the shihan in question, and only they could probably answer. However, I will say that it is highly likely that it came from Ueshiba, based on the PP knowledge in DR, and the anecdotes of him striking to vital targets, or activating them through a grab.

Quote:

This also brings up an interesting point of research/discussion - did Ueshiba learn this from Sokaku? Or from his other studies, perhaps even from Shinkage-ryu jujitsu? Or elsewhere?





I can only speculate of course, but I would imagine that most of this was learned through his studies in DR, simply because it seems like most of Aikido comes from that source as Pranin has shown. You can watch some of the DR videos and see the PP being used explicitly.

That being said, I was in conversation with a gentlemen from the Yagyu Shingen Ryu a few years ago. He mentioned that the 'hand techniques, including grips,' of pre-war Aikido are very similar to theirs. Ueshiba did have an unsigned menkyo from this ryu, so...? I can't comment much more than that though.

Quote:

So, it does raise some rather interesting questions... was it in Aikido to begin with? Considering that Aikido is largely the result of the culmination and amalgamation of Ueshiba's own understanding of the various arts that he briefly learnt - could it be that PP knowledge and use is not endemic to the art itself, but rather an adjunct that was gleaned from other sources?




I think Aikido as an art is an amalgam of what Ueshiba studied before hand. It also seems as though his 'techniques' kept changing, but the principles behind those techniques remained pretty much the same. So it wouldn't suprise me if he only taught PP to certain people, but not to others (apparently this is the way he taught).

Quote:

OTOH, if it is an integral part of Aikido, then why is the knowledge not more widespread?




That's a good question. But I don't think it is integral to Aikido. I think the only thing that is integral to Aikido is the eventual development of the bodyskills you have mentioned...that's the main thing. Yet, even this, what is to my mind undoubtably integral to Aikido hasn't been passed down by the great majority of teachers!

Quote:

At what point do we draw the conclusion that PP use and knowledge is/was explicitly inherent in Aikido? How much of that is based on our own knowledge, understanding and interpretation?




Very perceptive questions. I have speculated on the former, the latter is incredibly interesting and something I have been trying to figure out for awhile. One thing that I always think about is O'Sensei saying something to the effect of "No one is interesting in practicing my Aikido."

-Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#417679 - 04/02/09 07:46 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Chris,

It's only a modest library... not enough to rival Amazon/Borders.

I agree... unless some senior DR folk (ahem... Howie?) are willing to join in the discussion, I'm afraid all we can do is speculate.

I don't know.... It's hard to imagine that Ueshiba learnt this stuff from Takeda, in the (3?) short years he studied with him.

Quote:

...I was in conversation with a gentlemen from the Yagyu Shingen Ryu a few years ago. He mentioned that the 'hand techniques, including grips,' of pre-war Aikido are very similar to theirs. Ueshiba did have an unsigned menkyo from this ryu, so...?


That is an interesting piece of information... but since pre-war Aikido is essentially DR, would that make it similar to DR?? Did Takeda glean something of the several arts he learnt as a youth and adapted it to his art? Or did Ueshiba change something or adapted something from both in the process?

Quote:

I have speculated on the former, the latter is incredibly interesting and something I have been trying to figure out for awhile. One thing that I always think about is O'Sensei saying something to the effect of "No one is interesting in practicing my Aikido."


I can empathize... I wrestled with the same question myself for a very long time. That is, until I came across this quote: "Seek not to follow in the steps of the old masters, but to seek what they sought." To wit, Rick Clark, Pat McCarthy, my jujitsu teacher, and Mike Sigman were instrumental in helping me cross that personal bridge.

Look, to be honest, unless your aim is to carry on a tradition, I don't think it really matters whether one is practising "his Aikido" or not. If someone said to me, look here buddy... what you're doing is NOT Aikido and you shouldn't call it that, I'd happily change the name to no-name-ryu, or aiki-shadow-ryu-kenpo-jujitsu or some such name. After all... what's in a name?

Vaguely back on topic... PP *can* be used to augment one's techniques. IME, some Aikido "techniques" actually work better with PP. And IMO, the criticism often leveled at Aikido for being ineffective is largely mitigated when you realize how, inter alia, PP techniques naturally present themselves, and can be used effectively within the "techniques".

Whether that still constitutes "Aikido" or even "Ueshiba's Aikido" is debatable...

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#417680 - 04/03/09 01:28 PM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Here is a clip of someone discussing Yonkyo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=723cPpQCst0

He mentions he was informed that Yonkyo relates to any area of the body where pressure can be applied. Never heard of that before.

I have seen a 7th Dan from England in a seminar show a pressure point technique, but I can't remember the full ins and outs of it. He used his thumb to hit a pressure point on Ukes hand as he was grabbing it. The Uke was an experienced black belt, but he looked (and sounded) like he was in tremendous pain.

I was never entirely sure about PP in Aikido, but that was more to do with the way I was taught. My regular teacher would make us practice going for the PP first, which I don't think is a great idea regardless of what you are studying.

Trained properly they could be of use in Aikido, but as Eyrie said, is it still "Aikido"?

I also spoke to the DR teacher based in the UK. He said he got into Aikido, then DR, by studying Shiatsu. His Shiatsu teachers studied Aikido. He said Shiatsu influenced his training (I was interested in studying Shiatsu myself so I asked him about it). I never got any specifics from him though, but it was and interesting idea (combining Aikido/DR with Shiatsu study).
_________________________
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#417681 - 04/04/09 04:15 AM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

As with all styles things differ. Never heard yonkyo described the way you mention either.

1.)Yonkyo as Oshima Sensei taught was application of striking then an upward pressure to the radial nerve from sankyo. Bassically a fast pain compliance to take uke to ground from sankyo.

Obtain good sankyo (uke on tippy toes and maybe 1/3 a backward rotation to off balance), inner hand maintains sankyo esp if pinky hooks ukes pinky, then

release outer hand (choice here is, to slide up to radial nerve or fully release momentarily to strike radial nerve). Using the base of index finger strike/press in then ggrrriind the radial nerve into the bone (pret near same place ODM would take middle pulse), Pain ensues, use ekes arm as sword and take to ground. For submission repeat the in and 1/4 inch up grind. So it can be aid to pain compliance for throw and replace pin to get uke to tap.

Counter is to curl hand to fist, the muscles help blockade the nerve from offending pain. of course tried as sankyo is applied that curled fist...leads to goykyo

2.)Goykyo is what sounds like you observed during demo. Goykyo like combo of an inward bent sankyo into ikkyo (tenkan or irimi) easy to envision, uke resists early and makes a fist before sankyo fully applied, inside hand grabs wrist (chance to grind same area as yonkyo) while every bouncers fav. wrist bend is applied Elbow points up and foward (so uke thumb faces YOU not, his own mid section , this I believe is a difference from the 'std come along' many perform)

gokyo as given to me also allowed uke on tippy toes, twist flexed fist inward for 1/3 rotation... and the kicker was pain compliance by shoving your Thumb into the nerve between uke thumb and forefinger (PS this PP is called Gokoku in Japanese...I believe, easy to remember as PP to apply so similar).

Uke on ground, twist arm, driving shoulder into ground like screw, applying Gokoku, loosens muscle to apply PP at radial nerve as in yonkyo.

3. As to the idea of "is it Aikido" if PP are used well the aetemi are generally directed at vital PP and as I mentioned in Post after moderator Ames shifted it to the Aikido forum

Having taken Ukemi from Oshima Sensei I reflect two thangs
thets A.)extremely powerful fingers and...well hands/arms yadayadayada point too...
B.) With only some dan rank during testing was the same power, control and pain compliance obtained...so, not wishing to dubate wit flok it is my.....

***Experiential world in Ki Aikido w/ Oshima Sensei and other schools of blatant PP use which lead me to BELIEVE, I do believe, that PP control during a locking and some 'Harmonizing' throws (Not Atemi talkin bout here) is part and parcel of the Aikido of The Founder...why dont we hear about it?

Experience over a lifetime.
Tohei Sensei may have branched off but Train w/ O'Sensei oh for a while:)
Oshima Sensei when I was working with him had trained 25-30 yrs w/ Tohei Sensei and a good part as Uchi deshi.
So few people are willing to dedicate, with utter humbleness, a lifetime to one Art and Trust One Master that those are the only people who reach this level of understanding. Why should it be given away? Takes time to assess a person and even then we never truly know one another.
Just MHO. I Hear a set of knives all being honed, hark am I the roast for sup today??

-Karl. Abundant Peace
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417682 - 04/21/09 01:35 AM Re: PP use in Aikido [Re: karl314285]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi All,
Preface: if any of these do not work call 911 and start CPR w/in 1 min. You Do have CPR certification as higher ranks,yes?

I've wanted to cover health and revival points and as they were mostly given by Oshima Sensesi I place some here. He never gave a name to them and a more inclusive mention with general (read vague) diagrams is in the book I mentioned in the Philosophy Post in a book by Taisen Deshimaru "The Zen way to the Martial Arts" published by Compass under the "Penguin Group" the one I have is the 1982 1st paperback ed., It may well be out of print so amazon.com may be best bet.

1.Kikai-Tanden: 3 to four inches below navel between two acupuncture points, grab the loose skin and twist, good for much esp loss of consciousness.

2.Master Dong gave me this one (Master Ernie Cates actually): he didnt name it but Deshimaru does, this was a common in dojo revival, Deshimaru calls this 'Sancho', It uses the knee as massage device, it lies between the shoulder blades and is specifically a titch left of the 5th dorsal vertebrae, yeah... Master Dong just said knee between shoulder blades slightly to left , the patient is pushed to seated... knee placed then bend the unconscious one backwards so knee is pressing this will require two as one needs to support head and helps lower body weight, good if one is choked out and dont come back.

3.two minor/major points for health and revival...are on sole of foot and oodly same PP for pain compliance in technique goykyo...1st is mid plantar surface of foot in the hollow behind 3rd toe, this is deep and requires pressure, use the Thumb and press like all get out( bieleve called Kosan) and is good to maintaingeneral health as well
the other is (never had to try it...cardiac arrhythmia, no pulse, uhhhh Id start 911 and CPR but if someone was directed to try it...way cool if it worked)...It is the soft PP between thumb and fingers ...slow and steadily increasing pressure using both thumb (dorsal aspect of hand , and index finger opposite into palmar surface).

4. Generally these points are for someone with some signs of life, as such ATTENTION to breathing is vital and the diaphragm should be paid attention to Massage by thumbs starting at solar plexus and moving up, light heart massage is also adjunct

5. These are NOT to replace THE 911 AND ABC's of CPR, they are to help reverse the damage is one does not need advanced life support...a crushed trachea is not going to respond to massage, DUH,

6. oh, yeah you hit the brachial plexus on side of neck, this causes muscle spasm of trachea, different critter...Using thumbs massage the two hollows at base of skull (under cerebellum, below occipital bone of skull and the muscle spasm which "sealed the breath", as those in Chin-Na call it, should relax go to the knee in sancho next, UNDER no circumstance should carotid massage be attempted by the untrained.

7. Sometimes its as simple as bringing the unconscious to a seated position and bending them forward and back a few times if not returning from a choke or strike to the carotid bifurcation to release "sealing of the veins and arteries"

***As part of our BB requirements was to be certified in CPR and how to bend head forward w/ pressure for a bloody or broken nose (swallow ~ 1pint of blood and you will vomit profusely), a dislocated elbow NEEDS and X-ray as the olecrenon process can be chipped and left untreated the small piece of bone will die and the tendon ( and so the muscle attached) will just oneday POP offf Forever.
AS Instructors we should all be versed in healing and be certified in the ABC's and following actions of CPR, I recommend and carry a kit with a One way CPR respirator mask (no on wants to get vomit in their mouth, or TB), material for a tourniquet and a way to mark the time tourniquet was placed, even sugar cubes for the diabetic who only just told you their crashing and need sugar.

Boy scouts be prepared or be screw___!

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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