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#417604 - 03/26/09 02:29 PM bad behaviour & tantrums..
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
What do you other instructors do if you have a kid who throws a tantrum before class, during class or after class?

I'm interested to know how *you* deal with it!
_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

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#417605 - 03/26/09 07:16 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: Reiki]
clmibb Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
I'm pretty matter-of-fact with the kids. They simply calm down and participate in class or they can throw a fit somewhere else as to not disturb the rest of the class (small room off the main dojo, the bathroom, or even outside all with adult supervision that's not directly paying attention to him) it's their choice. When they calm down then they can join in the activities. If he starts up again, remind him that he has a choice to make, throw a fit and be alone, or knock it off and have fun with the class. After a few times (unless the parents give in to the fits) he'll get the message. Stuff like this, many times, gets worse before it gets better. Be persistent and you'll notice a change.

I haven't had the "pleasure" of a kid that throws a fit during class but I do have TONS of experience with my son who used to throw fits. It's the way I fixed it.

Casey

Side Note: Also make sure the kid doesn't have any type of learning disability (especially autisim). Sometimes with some disabilities the kids are simply over stimulated and don't know how to react to what's happening around him.
_________________________
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."- Ronald Reagan


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#417606 - 03/26/09 11:59 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: clmibb]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,
I've taught 4-80y/o, handicap and autistic Kids and adults ( not autistic adults).

I explained the way I teach to parents of younger kids (>10y/o) and they understood. With total groups of 30-50 adults and I had the kids (Uhg, like someone upstairs didnt like me!!) Projecting my voice and commands (i.e. Yellinggggg), Tended to get anyones attention. as with kids I would PROJECT my commands and if they were not followed I commanded a "Time Out" where the could do naught but watch, at the age of 4-5 this means nothing and I would physically grab their Gi and drag them to a corner, and as they started to crawl out I dragged them back, they just seem to want the attention and discipline not given by their parents. Sounds cruel but I had so many parents "thank me" after class it made me feel like asking why not save the money and discipline kids at home....Some are now in college and quite focused and oriented and their parents still see me as as a locus for this change, tho I was just there right time/place.

As to Autistic children...I've only had 3, sadly the powers that be saw my individual (Had to be, to connect) attention "cost ineffective" even tho Cuong-Nhu is a Not-for-profit corp., (we were short of teachers). I still feel robbed being taken away, had one low/med fct autistic child actually sit seiza for 45min (till he peed himself), his parents were amazed....

If the parents know what to expect...Yelll and drag to time out...over and over again...You are NOT the disciplinarian, the parents are chicken and passing the job to to you...so Gunny up and get in their face, kids actually respect it, just make sure the parents are ready...???

Sound cool.

_Karl. Peace. "THIS IS MY RIFLE, THIS IS MY GUN. THIS IS FOR FIGHTIN', THIS IS FOR FUN"
_________________________
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#417607 - 03/27/09 01:34 AM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: karl314285]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmmm... I don't know about "dragging" a child or otherwise man-handling (person-handling?) them.

I'm not entirely certain of the specifics, but I'm pretty sure the QLD Child Protection Act prohibits/limits anyone performing in a child-care related services or educational capacity, from physically handling a child in their temporary care UNLESS it is deemed necessary to do so and IF AND ONLY IF the child's behaviour puts said child, or the person or other children in their care at significant risk of harm or danger. The legal implications of this are quite serious and can amount to physical assault, not to mention the potential common law breach of duty of care.

The law also applies to "providers" of services dealing with children, and as providers of "martial arts instruction" services within the state of Queensland, we are bound by the legislative and administrative requirements set out in the Act (and other relevant Acts of legislation). Obviously the relevant laws in your country and/or state may differ, but I think, at the very least, one is bound by common law negligence and duty of care - to the child with behavioural issues, and to other children involved in the activity.

What I would suggest is, in the first instance, approach other service providers in similar or related fields that deal with children, e.g. day-care centres/schools/etc., and ask them about their organization's policies with regard to behaviour guidance and management. Quite likely these would have been nutted out to conform to whatever legislative and administrative requirements for dealing with child behaviour issues and risk management. They would also quite likely have in place, procedures and strategies for dealing with such children, as well as those with "special needs", e.g. autistic/mentally challenged.

Some helpful suggestions might include:
1. Establishing behavioural limits, such as:
* Clearly establish what the play and safety limits are, whilst they are in your care, and the consequences involved when limits are not adhered to.
* Engage the child's thinking and risk/reward processes, about their behaviours and environment, by asking reflective questions. By encouraging children to develop their play and learning limits and consequences, you reinforce their ownership of your school's practices.
* Defining limits in terms of a ‘positive’ instead of a ‘negative’ helps children to remember what to do rather than what not to do. E.g. ‘We play nicely’ rather than ‘Do not play rough’.
* Note that establishing limits depends largely on the developmental level of the child. Younger children require safety and guidance limits established for them by adults, while communication style and language with older children can be varied accordingly to negotiate limit setting.
* For example, you can discuss with children why it is important to do something in a certain way? What would happen if they didn't? Why is that dangerous?


2. Establishing spaces
* Safe zones/Timeout spaces - For example, a child who recognises that they are becoming frustrated with other children can retreat to an area that is calming and allows them to refocus.
* You can also use timeout space (in a different area) as a deterrent to negative behaviours. E.g. either they settle down and join in, or they can sit out the activity (and subsequent activities) until they are ready to participate. Continually reinforce the behaviourial limits and consequences for not doing so.

Above all, ignore bad behaviour, and reward good behaviour.

HTH.

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#417608 - 03/28/09 02:20 AM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: eyrie]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

Much better post. I must admit that was a while ago and only involved 1-2 kids I thought too young...they'd flop on the ground and start crawling, at times run, through other Adult classes...grabbing them was to avoid lower rank adults w/ no perpherial vis or worse, one almost made it to brown belt weapons (Inst had time to stop class).

Generally a command to sit w/ parent in 'peanut gallery' as time out worked and the older ones responded well to

Ignore bad behavior, and reward good behavior, as you so well put...Attention as a reward,

_Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#417609 - 03/28/09 06:05 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: Reiki]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Reiki:

Depends on the time it happens. Before class usually leave it be, am not their "parent". In class, depends on the type/kind of particular outburst. After class, again am not the parent, and assume Mr/Mrs Smith will take care of their kid. If not, then we mustintervene to keep order and prevent any type/kind og bloodshed.

What kind of tantrum, how many and what age are we talking about here?

Jeff

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#417610 - 03/28/09 06:31 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: clmibb]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Casey:

~Behavior issues~ CAN occur, and autism is one of a huge list.

In class, must be dealt with if merely to prevent it from distraction factor. However behaviors that are not noisy
not a distraction, I try and leave them alone.

However full blown melt downs typically require letting THEM get themselves together, once you tell them what you expect happen...

Tommy get a drink and pull yourself together, I can see you're frustrated. Get a drink, count to 10... come right back.


They can become more enraged knowing & understanding that they are "not doing" what they should like the other boys & girls but are literally unable (to whatever degree they are able) to prevent the given specific behavior(s).

"...Guys be quiet please..."
Hearing instead BLAH, BLAH "... please..." and we said something else that didn't register either.

"...Mary Elizabeth, you need to be quiet, ok..."

Hearing only her name Mary Elizabeth, and maybe quiet...maybe

Depending on the group I like to have him/her repeat back EXACTLY what you said to them. Very small words, More than 1 sentence is too long.

It also s you if you are even being heard... literally.


I've let kids rock quietly in the middle of a room. Several at a time in fact, in ferent locations.

Had them literally too afraid to do anything but watch their first couple classes. And if approached too terrified to get closer, until they wree ready. Kids in first, second grade even.

Had kids completely loose it towards a teacher/another kid. Literally a different reality and misinterpreted what happened to them. Took a suggestion as VERY personal and believed (wrongly) they were being scrutinized by us LITERALLY like the Eye of Saurmon (Lord of the Rings series)

Their non existant threshold towards any type or kind of imperfection takes time and effort to redirect.

Jeff

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#417611 - 03/28/09 06:44 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: karl314285]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Karl:

If you "loose it" they win, no? What is the difference between yelling and screaming (at them)? Is there a difference...?

We are NOT their mommy or daddy, meaning we get them for a very short time period per week, an hour, two at most. Firm but not yelling... slightly different creatures.

You describe a silly power struggle. Consistant rather than militant IMHV is a better method that is not fear based one. I'll get farther with my announced of my DISAPPOINTMENT rather than I will with any yelling or drill instructor foolishness.

Merely my opinion I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#417612 - 03/28/09 06:55 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:

I agree with your basic sentiments. Dragging a kid as if they were a ~urinating puppy~ to someplace is a really bad idea. But picking them up "parent style" to prevent them from getting hurt, makes sense. In their own little universe(s) we have to protect them from themselves too often.

"...Class were we supposed to be picking our toe nails and wandering towards the windows?... or were we practicing kicking with our partner?..."


The only problem with time-out "elsewhere" is these kids are prone toward problem behaviors. Putting them anyplace but within "spitting distance" is potentially a pretty dangerous proposition...

I want to "see"/perceive them at all times...

Jeff

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#417613 - 03/28/09 08:24 PM Re: bad behaviour & tantrums.. [Re: Ronin1966]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Jeff,

The "time-out area" can simply be a designated spot off the mat - or any enforceable boundary within your locus of control. We're simply establishing, with the child, the idea of a specific boundary and limit - in this case, a spatial one. As well as the consequences of them breaking the "boundary" rules... Most children innately understand that concept - and in my experience, even the autistic ones.

So, no, I'm not referring to a separate room.

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